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Old 18th Feb 2013, 10:52   #1
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Microsoft's Windows Blue plans hinted at in job ad

No return to a classic UI planned, sadly.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/20...windows-blue/1
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 11:24   #2
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I reckon Microsoft's pigheadedness in failing to address serious customer concerns regarding the way Windows 8 is presented is going to cost them dearly. I am involved in a major university's school of computing as well as dealing with users of all ages elsewhere. Windows 8 is the source of much discussion and on balance many people don't see it as an advantage or step forward over Windows7

I run it on a home PC and it is more trouble than it is worth. Why do we have to learn yet another way of working having already mastered Android? Couple this with the tightening of MS licence systems re Ofice 2013 and Windows Media Centre and you can see why everyday users are getting fed up with Microsoft. I spend a lot of time helping new PC buyers find a way to get windows 7 rather than 8 on their new purchases. Sorry Microsoft you have boobed big time on this one
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 11:30   #3
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Quote:
but is still likely to disappoint those who had believed that Sinofsky's departure may bring the company to its senses.
Will anything bring them to there senses ? they don't seem to be listening to customer feedback about wanting to have the choice of full screen start menu or the classic version.

M$ is like that annoying kid who puts there fingers in there ears and shouts
"I'm not listening, la, la,la"
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 12:03   #4
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Was afraid this was gonna happen

Probably gonna stick to W7 for a long time....given that, hopefully, W7 will have a decent long-term-support in updates.

So far, I really loved the whole development of Windows - sure, some were less good than others (Vista..lol), but at least it remained a some-what user-friendly OS without much limitation, with endless options if you wanted them. I always loved that.

While I appreciate certain parts of W8 and will use it probably on dedicated devices, as a regular workstation I don't see it working well. It is too limited - too mainstreamed. Up til W7, Windows improved as many tasks became so much more convenient, fast and easy to do. With W8, I feel many options have been taken away and I am afraid it is going to develop into a similar piece of **** such as iOS is - a retarded, extremely limited and narrow-minded OS for people too lazy or stupid to bother getting to know something properly.

In other words - I would've loved to see the introduction of W8 (and Blue, and so on) as a sibling to W7, not a replacement. I think they both have separate target groups, which should hopefully become evident within the years to come. But given MS' history, I fear that won't happen. Maybe that'll mean what many have dreamt of for a decade or more: big migrations towards Linux. Regardless, I think the next ten years are no doubt going to be very exciting.

/end mondaymorningrant
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 12:42   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree View Post
No return to a classic UI planned, sadly.
Good. It's easy enough to get the 'old' Start Menu back if you want to in Windows 8, there's no need for MS to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tigertop1 View Post
I reckon Microsoft's pigheadedness in failing to address serious customer concerns regarding the way Windows 8 is presented is going to cost them dearly. I am involved in a major university's school of computing as well as dealing with users of all ages elsewhere. Windows 8 is the source of much discussion and on balance many people don't see it as an advantage or step forward over Windows 7
That's because in many ways it isn't. On a current desktop there probably is little reason to upgrade to Windows 8, especially if you're happy with 7. But like it or not computing and the way we interact with machines is changing. Windows 8 is the start of the path of an OS designed for the future of computing.

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I run it on a home PC and it is more trouble than it is worth. Why do we have to learn yet another way of working having already mastered Android?
Really? It's not that difficult to learn the differences between Windows 7 and 8. How exactly is 8 'more trouble than it is worth'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Will anything bring them to there senses ? they don't seem to be listening to customer feedback about wanting to have the choice of full screen start menu or the classic version.

M$ is like that annoying kid who puts there fingers in there ears and shouts
"I'm not listening, la, la,la"
Again, why should MS do it when a) it's not part of their vision for Windows moving forward and b) there's other options already available that do it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by faxiij View Post
While I appreciate certain parts of W8 and will use it probably on dedicated devices, as a regular workstation I don't see it working well. It is too limited - too mainstreamed. Up til W7, Windows improved as many tasks became so much more convenient, fast and easy to do. With W8, I feel many options have been taken away and I am afraid it is going to develop into a similar piece of **** such as iOS is - a retarded, extremely limited and narrow-minded OS for people too lazy or stupid to bother getting to know something properly.
I'm yet to come across anything I could do in Windows 7 that I can't do in Windows 8. All the options are still there and it's no more limited than any previous version of Windows.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 12:52   #6
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I dont feel that the problem with windows 8 is the actual UI, but the fact that it is fragmented inside the actual OS.
I doesn't make sense to replace a UI to use metro and then everywhere else is just the whole UI that we know since windows vista, but with different visuals.

To be honest i dont understand how did it take them two years to rewrite a start-menu and copy elements of metro UI accross, some might say that they updated the kernel to new processors and stuff. But i still think that for having thousands of developers working on a OS for about three years to end up with something like windows 8 is just bad organisation and no clear target.

I personally think that the UI is not bad, but it needs to get integrated accross the whole OS. Because at this moment is neither good for touch neither for keyboard/mouse combos.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:07   #7
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What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:18   #8
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.
Maintenance, and keeping applications working between two UI's. I dont think devs would be happy with that solution either.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:21   #9
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That page screen that fills your whole screen and shows all the live tiles and keeps you informed of things all the time, that's your start button!

Is that such a difficult thing to understand?
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:45   #10
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For all those who think that W8 is a good step forward I have to say I believe you are in the minority. W8 is a crude marketing attempt by Microsoft to push us to their alternative to Android , Apple and the others. . Since most of the others are better than W8 and well established now that will be a market failure in the medium to long term. I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:47   #11
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I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice
Why?
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:53   #12
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Quote:
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I run W7, W8, Linux and Android systems and W8 is a far behind 4th in choice
Why?
Yes Why?
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 13:56   #13
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Originally Posted by jrs77 View Post
What's so hard with having the classic UI available for those who want it? I don't use Aero in Win7 either, but the classic UI.

So aslong as they offer the option to turn off all this Aero/Metro-stuff and have the classic UI I'm good with it.
I honestly think that the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft sold Windows 9 as Metro only. Microsoft will probably still offer "desktop mode" on 500+€ licenses though, and scrap it all together in Windows 10.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 15:06   #14
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To be honest i dont understand how did it take them two years to rewrite a start-menu and copy elements of metro UI accross, some might say that they updated the kernel to new processors and stuff. But i still think that for having thousands of developers working on a OS for about three years to end up with something like windows 8 is just bad organisation and no clear target.
I honestly think that may be the daftest paragraph Ive ever read. Do you think they hire some of the best programmers just to let them twiddle their thumbs for 3 years. They've had to make the whole metro thing, windows now starts up way faster than win7. Theres also the windows store, and don't forget the much better task manager.

There isn't really any point not to upgrade really. Its a faster version of win7 with refined/new features, and if you miss the start menu, just use something to add it. By sticking with win7, you get stuck in the past where mobile/desktop were separate.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 15:31   #15
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Well they are really welcome to shrink their market share in the future as much as they like for all I care. For a general consumer there's plenty of other options already, excluding gaming, and I've got high expectations how Valve's linux endeavours will eventually turn out.

Also, a lot of people sat perfectly happily on WinXP for more than eight years. Don't see a reason why Win7 wouldn't last as long.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 15:33   #16
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I honestly think that may be the daftest paragraph Ive ever read. Do you think they hire some of the best programmers just to let them twiddle their thumbs for 3 years. They've had to make the whole metro thing, windows now starts up way faster than win7. Theres also the windows store, and don't forget the much better task manager.

There isn't really any point not to upgrade really. Its a faster version of win7 with refined/new features, and if you miss the start menu, just use something to add it. By sticking with win7, you get stuck in the past where mobile/desktop were separate.
It seems you don't know much about development:

1st- The barebones of Metro UI already existed in the windows phone used was just ported accross.
2nd - the new taskbar and explorer werent created from ground up, they were optimised, and they integrated a new toolbar (the ribbon bar thing).
2nd- first version of iPhone OS 1.0 was created with only about 200 devs for its first version, kde4.0 and gnome 3, have less than this amount of devs, and yet these manage to create UIs that are not fragmented.

3rd- Windows uses over 2000 developers and hundreds of project managers, and yet you say that its daft what i said, that putting a ribbon on a few applications, and creating a new start button, a task manager is enough and a few changes to the kernel?
It was 3years of development, with one of the biggest developer teams in the world:S, and the result was a OS with two UI's, one of which isnt much different from windows 7, i would say that most of it, is a direct port from windows 7?

PS: I forgot the windows store... thats explains why windows 8 is a really bad implementation, because the time spent on developing the windows store application.

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Old 18th Feb 2013, 16:40   #17
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No return to a classic UI planned, sadly.
There's really no need to "scrap" Metro/modern...
a simple SP1 with a function to turn it off would suffice.

Later, when we're all touch-based-cloudy we can turn it on again.
and the office-monkeys doing their typing can leave it off.

Why is that so hard?

Quote:
Maintenance, and keeping applications working between two UI's. I dont think devs would be happy with that solution either.
True, but backward compatibility WILL be an issue for professional users, so for the next decade* or so, a pure "app" based design won't be received well.

*heck, the companies around here are just now switching to Win7 and office 2010. From XP that is, not from Vista.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 16:43   #18
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first version of iPhone OS 1.0 was created with only about 200 devs for its first version, kde4.0 and gnome 4 have less than this ammount of devs. and yet these manage to create UIs that are not fragmented.
Sure, so you say KDE4 is not a huge plasma mess (it is) and so is Gnome 3 (both Unity and standard Gnome), unless you run it in Gnome classic mode. I would say KDE4 is even bigger mess than Windows 8, by a long shot, and Gnome 3/Unity is not so different from Windows 8, maybe bit more confusing than 8 :
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 16:56   #19
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There's really no need to "scrap" Metro/modern...
a simple SP1 with a function to turn it off would suffice.

Later, when we're all touch-based-cloudy we can turn it on again.
and the office-monkeys doing their typing can leave it off.

Why is that so hard?



True, but backward compatibility WILL be an issue for professional users, so for the next decade* or so, a pure "app" based design won't be received well.

*heck, the companies around here are just now switching to Win7 and office 2010. From XP that is, not from Vista.
I get what you r saying, but the examples you mention are done with terminals, which these days are mostly remotly installed. (with exception to devs and small offices).
MetroUI works well with just a mouse/keyboard, what doesn't work is the left/right sidebars, and a few other bits, which are left overs from the touch approach, but live within the desktop (which was left from windows 7, and example of bad integration).
The start button isn't a issue since terminal users usually dont even use the start button much, since most their work is done with a few applications, so the lack of a start button is the issue.

To me the issue is just a UI fragmentation inside the actual OS, where only the metroUI supported apps, are touch friendly, the rest (explorer,desktop, control panel, etc.) are not, and are hard to use on the go, something that doesn't happen with android/iOS.

That's what baffles me about MS, they could created just a windows touch version for the tablets, in a simliar fashion to android/ios, which with the inclusion of a touch office version and xbox live could have been enough to convince a lot of people, which would hint at a merge in the nextfew years, instead they half done the whole lot and screwed hardware partners for nothing:S.

If was a shareholder in MS i would asking some serious questions to what MS is thinking, its clear that they don't know where they are going or coming.

Just as an example (Ubuntu touch looks better integrated than windows8 for phone tablets and PC's), and while Ubuntu only has to be concerned with kernel patches, and work over gnome4, and mobile interface, they have 1/20 or even less of the resources of MS:S.

I really hope that steam brings serious applications to linux (adobe, autodesk, better office support), windows stinks and will continue to stink for a few years.

Last edited by derviansoul; 18th Feb 2013 at 17:04.
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Old 18th Feb 2013, 17:02   #20
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Sure, so you say KDE4 is not a huge plasma mess (it is) and so is Gnome 3 (both Unity and standard Gnome), unless you run it in Gnome classic mode. I would say both KDE4 is even bigger mess than Windows 8, by a long shot, and Gnome 3/Unity is not so different from Windows 8, maybe even more confusing than 8 :
I like the actual KDE4. i just found a shame that the support applications like; network management, sound management, dolphin and a few others took too long to fix. I think plasma has its uses, especially with a dual screen. I also like Unity (I haven't tried gnome3 yet, i haven't had the time), but i never been a fan of gnome classic.
Obviously there are issues with all these i mentioned. but when you compare resources, timeframes, its seems that the dev team MS, specially, project managers, have something to answer for.

Last edited by derviansoul; 18th Feb 2013 at 20:43. Reason: Edit typo: kde4 not kde5
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