Would you piss on a dead Afghan?

[Porkins' Wingman]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16534289

Someone had the idea to do this, and then the others agreed to it.

Put yourself in the mindset of being at war - consider the tension/stress, importance of comradery , the effects of adrenalin/bloodthirst - your leader says "Yeah, let's piss on them" - would you have been able to say no and call them on it?

Did the guy videoing it do so deliberately to shop them, or did he think it would be a good video to show mates later?

It's hard to believe they were so stupid as (i) to do it, and (ii) to let it be videoed.

[specofdust]

It's unsurprising, but stupid, and a breach of the Geneva convention. We shouldn't be surprised when soldiers do stupid stuff like this, but we should punish them when they do it. Especially given that we appear to be striving for peace out in Afghan now, and muslims tend to take desecration of the dead somewhat seriously.

[Fizzban]

No, what would be the point? He/She is dead.

[longweight]

This is awful but not surprising.

[yodasarmpit]

Originally Posted by specofdust

It's unsurprising, but stupid, and a breach of the Geneva convention. We shouldn't be surprised when soldiers do stupid stuff like this, but we should punish them when they do it. Especially given that we appear to be striving for peace out in Afghan now, and muslims tend to take desecration of the dead somewhat seriously.

^ What he said.

It's not nice and will be seen as disrespectful, not just by the Taliban but Afghans in general.
To film it is just stupidity.

[SuicideNeil]

Geneva convention

Pfft, given how Taliban / insurgent fighters treat captured Ally troops & their own countrymen & women, it's hardly surprising that sometimes Ally troops return the favour ( to a lesser extent ). However, what makes us better than them is that we do follow the rules of war and should know better than to behave in this way- there are better ways to vent steam than to disrespect the dead & allow yourselves to be filmed or photographed doing it; this stuff always comes back to bite them in the ass eventually & they should have learnt that by now...

[brave758]

Seen worse, in conflict your mindset changes.

[erratum1]

Those animals have done worse, who cares.

<removed> Keep it civilised please - consider this the first and last warning - spec

I couldn't do what these brave soldiers do day in and day out and will never see what they have seen, so don't judge at your keyboard in your nice warm room.

[flame696]

As a muslim its not nice seeing this, its disrespectful, the person is dead end of. Theres no reason to act like children and urinate on them. Its no going to help the situation it will just make it soo much worse.

The forces were actually making some head way and now they have just shot themselves in the foot again.

@erratum1: if they are animals then why are we acting in the same way? Are we not from a civilized society??

[longweight]

Originally Posted by erratum1

Those animals have done worse, who cares.

<removed> Keep it civilised please - consider this the first and last warning - spec

I couldn't do what these brave soldiers do day in and day out and will never see what they have seen, so don't judge at your keyboard in your nice warm room.

They do what they are paid to do, no one is making them do it!

[GeorgeStorm]

There's no doubt it's disgusting behaviour, and saying that 'they' have done worse doesn't make it ok for us to do...... (although they were US guys rather than UK)

However the thread title is misleading, since none of us (i doubt) can speak with any authority on the matter really, since obviously the situation is so different from any that all/most of us have been exposed to.

[DXR_13KE]

For one to be the "good guy" one must behave like the good guy at all times...

[MiNiMaL_FuSS]

It's terrible.

However it's easy to forget that soldiers are put in an environment where the enemy is purposely and systematically de-humanised - this is because killing another human being is hard, so soldiers are taught not to think of the enemy as human beings as any hesitation in killing them could be understandably disastrous.

WWII - We called the German's Nazi's and Gerry's, dehumanising them.
Vietnam - We called the Vietcong Gook's, de-humanising them.
Iraq, Afghanistan - it's more complicated, in many ways it serves the same purpose to encourage soldiers to think of the enemy as 'insurgents' 'al qaeda' 'rag-heads'. However with the modern on-set of media and monitoring the Army cannot be seen to outwardly encourage such behaviour; but the public should realise that you cannot hope to apply the usual acceptable social norms in a war situation.

Apologies for any offensive terminology used above, but it necessary to demonstrate the point. You can't ask a man to easily kill another equal human being without hesitation and quilt, and so it is necessary to condition soldiers to not think of the enemy as equal human beings. Disgusting and inhumane yes, necessary yes...it's hard to draw a clear line when you consider both sides.

Originally Posted by erratum1

Those animals have done worse, who cares.

Is exactly the de-humanising effect I'm talking about. They are people, exactly the same in every way as you and me - and that's how the civilian public should think of them. Individual people no different from your own friends and family, that will have their own reasoning and beliefs to fight as our opposition. Their reasoning and belief may be flawed form our prospective, but I'm certain ours is from them. There are no good guys in war...only different perspectives.

But it would be counter productive to ask our soldiers to think in such terms, they are essentially a tool of our nations, and must be able to disconnect from the act of killing another person. You cannot ask them to disconnect and kill, and then criticise them for doing something inhumane.

[K404]

Focussing on one tiny little aspect of this:

Doing ANYTHING that is going to anger the enemy and damaging the support of the locals is putting service personnels lives at increased risk.

...and that is really really counter-productive. Hey! I know.... things have been going ok recently, lets give the enemy more emotive propaganda to aid their recruiting.


(and yes, the act is wrong on every level. Though it is ironic that the Allies have rules of war, while the enemy does not...and will use allied indiscretions for their own use... hypocrites)

[longweight]

Not going to link it but www.mindcrap.com has the footage. Just awful.

[Porkins' Wingman]

Originally Posted by longweight

Not going to link it but www.mindcrap.com has the footage. Just awful.

Just had a look at it - so strange really. They don't seem drunk, there's not much bravado going on or anything, just looks really lame, which makes it even harder to understand why they bothered doing it.

[Elton]

No. But I'm not psychologically induced into the environment in the event this occurred.

[Nedsbeds]

Does anyone think it strange there is an outcry over this "humiliation"? Those soldiers have just killed those men. Is someone's life somehow more cherished or important when it is gone?

[Nexxo]

The killing can be regarded as justifiable --a necessary evil. Pissing on their corpses is not. Of course killing people is a much more messy business than pissing on them, but we don't like to be confronted with that. We like war served just and noble. This act shows war for the barbarism it is, and that doesn't sit well.

[PureSilver]

Originally Posted by K404

Doing ANYTHING that is going to anger the enemy and damaging the support of the locals is putting service personnels lives at increased risk.

...and that is really really counter-productive. Hey! I know.... things have been going ok recently, lets give the enemy more emotive propaganda to aid their recruiting.

^ THIS and it's not 'one tiny little aspect', it's the premier issue! The Taliban expect Allied forces to detain, injure or kill their forces in confrontation; that's war. Desecration of corpses, however, will only inflame public opinion - crucially, the opinion of non-Taliban persons - against Allied troops and Western society in general. By pissing on the corpses of some already-dead enemy combatants, the soldiers may have just killed some of their friends or countrymen, who will fall in the inevitable revenge attacks. Worse, and again predictably, this video will be used to stir up anti-Western sentiment in madrassas and online forums and in the radicalization of disaffected persons worldwide, possibly precipitating further attacks against the civilian populations of the West. Want proof? How about the 'crimes' the 9/11, 7/7 and Madrid attacks were purporting to avenge?

These soldiers have just undone many months - maybe years - of good work, and therefore many lives lost in so doing. What a stupid waste. I don't doubt that the sandbox is a violent, unpleasant place, but professional soldiers shouldn't be there if they can't maintain a minimum level of professionalism. Since even the drunkest bar fight doesn't end in the winner urinating on the loser, I think it's safe to say that the minimum level is some way above where they're at...