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Old 23rd May 2013, 11:52   #1
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Killing in Woolwich

I've been truly shocked by this. More so than any other terrorist event.

I've seen on facebook on how some people are dealing with this and also on the news.

I can't agree with the EDL way of doing things and I know the muslim community have tried to distance themselves from this.

Australia are looking to force the issue of you either live like an Australian in Australia or you leave.

Is that such a bad thing to say? I'm all for multiculturalism but what could have stopped this?

Just so truly sad for this poor blokes family and friends. No one deserves that.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 12:42   #2
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I have no political view on this (nutters and extremists can crop up anywhere, any time, regardless of the alertness of the authorities), but I hope for the victim's sake that he was killed or knocked unconscious by being slammed into by a car, before the butchery began.

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Old 23rd May 2013, 13:05   #3
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I have no political view on this (nutters and extremists can crop up anywhere, any time, regardless of the alertness of the authorities)
Pretty much the same actually.

One thing I did notice though when I watched the video taken from a mobile on The Guardian's website was that the alleged attacker was covered in blood, yet the body in the background had absolutely no pooling. There is a lot of blood in the body, seemed strange to me is all. Or maybe I have watched too much Dexter.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 13:09   #4
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It was all on the pavement where he was knocked down. For some reason they then dragged the corpse on to the road. I saw an aerial shot somewhere and that was the impression I got anyway.

I don't use Facebook myself by my partner was expressing her disgust at some of the racist, xenophobic vitriol being drivelled on there, and it made me feel:

a) Glad I don't use Facebook, and
b) Sad.

The "I don't want to live on this planet any more" Futurama meme is overused, but the sentiment holds true all these years later.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 13:10   #5
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I've found the media's coverage of this to be fairly horrendous - does a newspaper / tv channel / website of either of the above really need to show pictures of the guys involved holding massive knives with their hands covered in blood? Surely they need to have some form of censorship...

Edit: I did see a slightly more encouraging tweet last night on the subject - it was something along the lines of "Not all muslims are terrorists, but all racists are w*****s"
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Old 23rd May 2013, 13:22   #6
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Quote:
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"Not all muslims are terrorists, but all racists are w*****s"
I like that
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Old 23rd May 2013, 13:25   #7
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Aals the racists are happy to take advantage of these attacks and the terrorists are happy for them to do so as they want beple to hate each other too.

But the main issue here isn't twitter or the EDL. It's the fact that some guys got it into their heads that it was right to set out to torture and kill another man in the middle of a London street. If they took please in that it would make them perverts, if they did it because them think the citizens of this country will ask their covenment to change their policies out of fear of voilence then I belive they are wrong as that is not the way people of theis country, in general, react to a such an action.

The authorities will have to look into the lives these people were leading. If they attened a Mosque, what was being preached there? If they were know to the police as potential terrorists, how do we balance the presumtion of innocence with the protection of the public?
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Old 23rd May 2013, 14:00   #8
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This is going to sound a bit risky.

I think we need a dose of Australia.

They chose to come here, we didn't force them, they chose to accept our country, we didn't force them. If they don't like our culture, then leave - We won't stop them.

Multi-cultural societies like ours come together in a mixing pot and mix, and best of all we should all come out better for it, not segregating ourselves because of some imaginary friend.

I don't have any Muslim friends, but I don't really understand how people like the BNP associate random acts of terror and a generally peaceful religion as a cause. It's all personal interpretation - Us crazy white folk did it too, Catholicism, Protestantism, Christianity being the prime suspects for butchering people based on deity.

All of that said, let's not forget that when it comes to rocking up to foreign countries and maiming people we, as Brits, have form. We don't get to sit on a pedestal, because we've done a lot of this ourselves. Even though we didn't do it personally, our nationality is attributed with some pretty rancid acts.

Edit: Don't mistake that as me thinking its okay, it's disgusting behaviour, but to cry foul without acknowledging that we did it too seems to be the order of the day.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 14:55   #9
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Well, who do you mean when you refer to "them"? How exactly would "a dose of Australia" have helped avert what happened yesterday, given that it's pretty unclear at this stage who these guys were or their exact motivation for the appalling act they committed?

I think we need to avoid knee-jerk reactions to this incident until there are some more facts on the ground and the initial wild speculation has tailed off.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:04   #10
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I suppose the way to fix all this rampant multiculturalism is to just institute some good old fashioned marginalism. I look forward to seeing how well that will work.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:11   #11
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Zombies exist everywhere... the male zombie disease. Zombies like to kill and they use whatever excuse they can. Religion is often a good excuse but even without it they would still create a reason.

There are so many zombies walking around with the potential to cause pain and suffering. The zombies feel some degree of entitlement to inflict harm based on their grossly nonsensical view of things. When you remove all logic and operate entirely on emotion then you end up colliding with others in negative ways.

It always comes down to ego and the need to feed it.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:17   #12
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As far as I know at least one of the killers was born (or at least educated here) and was a convert.

Quote:
Michael 'Mujaheed' Adebolajo, who sources have claimed is one of the suspects, converted to Islam a decade and was always of "impeccable character", radical cleric Anjem Choudary has said.

He said they both attended Mulgrave Primary school, which is located next to the scene of the killing, adding: "I saw the pictures of him last night, his name is Michael Adebolajo.

"I went to the same primary school as him in Woolwich, Mulgrave, and grew up in the same area and he came to the local mosque - it was a peaceful community with lots of Muslim people from Somalia and Pakistan. I didn't know him that well so I can't say where his family was from."

Choudary led Islamist group Al-Muhajiroun, the banned forerunner to Islam 4 UK, where Adebolajo often appeared alongside other radical protesters.

Mr Choudary continued: "He converted around 2003 to Islam, before I met him and I knew him as his convert name 'Mujaheed' when he used to attend our demonstrations and lectures. I last saw him in 2011, he was a very nice man with impeccable character and nothing unusual about him."

He said: "What he did was unusual and it's not the kind of view that I propagate and I do not condone the use of violence, but those views are out there. Some members of the Muslim community struggle to express themselves and he is making his voice heard in blood."

Choudary suggested that it was possible the attack was motivated by British government foreign policy in the Muslim world, and that this may not have been an isolated incident.
You see Choudary can get away with it if you "justify" attacks in other parts of the world. and then suggest attacks here are "explained" by world events. I have a massive problem with these clerics directly or indirectly getting others to kill for them or setting impressionable youths on such a path.

France regularly deports dodgy imans and other radicals and the job is doen and dusted before the European court gets a sniff of it. Here we didn't manage to deport Hamza until he agreed to it himself. We need to find a way of getting to the people that encorage, facilitate or condone this sort of thing. And it may involve taking actions that we would rather not have to do in an ideal world.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:50   #13
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Choudry and his band of terrorist extremists do not represent the muslim faith or communities in fact they are despised by most of the communities, I know this as I deal with speaking to all communities on a daily basis in my work as an anti racism/anti fascist campaigner and a member of the action committee for NORSCARF (North Staffordshire Campaign Against Racism And Fascism). My heart felt sympathies go out to the family of the victim who have lost a loved family member, Im a frustrated and annoyed by the right wing scum EDL,BNP etc who are exploiting this for their own racist/fascist agendas and using it to divide communities without thought for the family and friends of the victim they are heartless evil scum
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:51   #14
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Originally Posted by bawjaws View Post
Well, who do you mean when you refer to "them"? How exactly would "a dose of Australia" have helped avert what happened yesterday, given that it's pretty unclear at this stage who these guys were or their exact motivation for the appalling act they committed?

I think we need to avoid knee-jerk reactions to this incident until there are some more facts on the ground and the initial wild speculation has tailed off.
I thought the context would be sufficient - Immigrants.

Mostly I have no issues with immigration, because the vast majority keep their heads down, get a job, and seem to have a live and let live approach which is great, could do with more of their mentality.

The people that come here just to stir **** and promote something that clearly doesn't have mass appeal, then kill people because they're not being listened to?

They could do with the dose of Australian Immigration Policy I mentioned. Don't like it? Leave. I wouldn't expect to go to their home country and get them to flip to being agnostic. In fact, I suspect I'd be killed for trying.

Islamic converts are likely to have been lured in by an extremist, and while I freely accept that there are extremists everywhere, the vast majority appear to be immigrants to this country.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 15:53   #15
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Lets not bring immigration into this have some respect for the victim and his family for Christ sake
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Old 23rd May 2013, 17:13   #16
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Set aside the religious overtones of this incident, to be frank it is absolutely nothing more than him being a loon.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 17:34   #17
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Set aside the religious overtones of this incident, to be frank it is absolutely nothing more than him being a loon.
But to side aside religion here is a mistake as that was why he did what he did. One isolated religious extrtemist might be taken as a nutter. But these guys aren't the first or probably the last to murder random people in this country because they though it was justified through their islamic faith.

Doesn't reflect on every muslim, but there are other young men (mostly) in this country listening to older men tellign them about why these acts were justified and how the killers would be having a great time in heaven if only the police had killed them.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 17:48   #18
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I thought this was going to be closed.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 17:56   #19
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Australia are looking to force the issue of you either live like an Australian in Australia or you leave.
While I don't agree with that, From speaking to my University profs from various parts of the world they suggest that Britain is losing its identity because its too tolerant. However that's more in reference to architecture but I suppose it translates into many areas.

Quote:
Im a frustrated and annoyed by the right wing scum EDL,BNP etc who are exploiting this for their own racist/fascist agendas and using it to divide communities without thought for the family and friends of the victim they are heartless evil scum
The trouble is attacks like these are pushing more people with normal views to the more radical views of the likes of the EDL/BNP.
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Old 23rd May 2013, 18:04   #20
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I thought this was going to be closed.
Why, we normally manage to keep discussion civilized in here, regardless of topic.
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