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Old 19th Aug 2013, 10:41   #1
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HWBot bans Windows 8 over RTC flaw

Benchmark results not to be trusted.
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/bits/20...ot-bans-win8/1
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:00   #2
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While the old bug only affected the Unigine Heaven benchmark running under Windows 7, however, this latest incarnation causes all benchmarks to report inaccurate results under Windows 8
Sorry call me confused So the drift in the RTC happens under 7 as well, but they re-wrote the benchmark so as to take this into account ? and now the same thing with 8 ?

Or am i misunderstanding that the problem with 7 isn't the RTC drift, but faulty code.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:01   #3
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I don't get it, why don't they just use some other form of timing system, instead of getting rid of users?

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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:05   #4
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
Or am i misunderstanding that the problem with 7 isn't the RTC drift, but faulty code.
The problem in Windows 7 was in how an older version of Unigine Heaven addressed the RTC; the problem in Windows 8 is in the RTC itself.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:14   #5
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Ahhh OK, thanks for clearing that up.

If the problem is with the RTC in windows 8, cant this cause all sorts of other problems ?
Or does most modern software now use the HPET.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:19   #6
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Originally Posted by Corky42 View Post
If the problem is with the RTC in windows 8, cant this cause all sorts of other problems ?
If you're fiddling with the BCLCK, then yes. The linked HWBot post shows a test that reveals just how serious the problem is: run at a higher BCLCK, and the Windows system clock starts gaining time; run at a lower BCLCK, and the Windows system clock starts losing time. Either way, you've got clock drift - and all that means for cryptography, two-factor authentication, logging etceteros.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:33   #7
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The linked HWBot post shows a test that reveals just how serious the problem is: ....

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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:34   #8
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:41   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impar View Post
Greetings!
Here, allow me:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HWBot
We can also demonstrate the Windows8 RTC problem with the Windows Time. Have a look at the videos below. In one of the videos, we underclocked the base clock frequency by 6%. After 5 minutes, Windows Time was already 18(!) seconds behind real time. When overclocking the base clock frequency, we can see the opposite effect. We overclock by roughly 4%, and after two minutes, Windows Time is 3 seconds ahead of real time.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/brkDKgvXKko
http://www.youtube.com/embed/XUi0zpRrtMM
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:44   #10
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Bad choice of smilie. I understood the problem, was more puzzled on how wasnt this caught earlier.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:46   #11
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Very interesting to read the link provided in the article, this throws doubt on all benchmarks comparing 7 to 8. I wounder if Microsoft changed the way 8 measures time.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 11:52   #12
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Bad choice of smilie. I understood the problem, was more puzzled on how wasnt this caught earlier.
The trouble with clock skew is that it's subtle: your clock might gain a few minutes over a week. If you're an overclocker, the chances are good you probably don't leave your PC running for that long - you'll reboot near-daily to try new settings, install new drivers, and so forth. Each time you reboot, Windows will reset the clock from an NTP server, removing the skew - until it builds up again. As I remember it, Windows even checks in with an NTP server while the system is running - nightly? Weekly? I can't remember, somebody with Windows will have to check on that - which would mean the clock corrects itself.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 12:07   #13
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Windows checks once a week, but knowing Microsoft the NTP server is running windows so who knows how accurate it is J/K
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 12:08   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gareth Halfacree View Post
The trouble with clock skew is that it's subtle: your clock might gain a few minutes over a week. If you're an overclocker, the chances are good you probably don't leave your PC running for that long - you'll reboot near-daily to try new settings, install new drivers, and so forth. Each time you reboot, Windows will reset the clock from an NTP server, removing the skew - until it builds up again. As I remember it, Windows even checks in with an NTP server while the system is running - nightly? Weekly? I can't remember, somebody with Windows will have to check on that - which would mean the clock corrects itself.
If you've got a dedicated setup then it's likely the system will only stay powered on for a couple of hours at a time at most before a reset of some sort (either deliberate or not)
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 14:14   #15
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Benchmarking Over clockers have been exploiting software/registry workarounds to maximise their scores for years - the top ones use a stripped own OS that normal users would not even recognise and 3d settings/hacks that distort the display to a point could never actually play a game on it but it gives a higher score - most of them even sit there running PCmark tests flapping their mouse around to make one specific test produce an artificially high score.

Here's a sample of how far to go to get a good score - http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=35053

The skill has been finding these cheats and learning how to strip down the software to ensure the OS has enough guts to work and produce a score.

My point is, as is the way with the other "optimisations" it's real for everyone (interested in this sort of thing) so why should anyone care enough to ban it when they're all using it?

And why should Microsoft care?
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 16:11   #16
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Good one. Looking forward to world-wide ban on W8.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 17:55   #17
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The issue only rears its head if you adjust BCLK while in the OS after boot, from high BCLK to low BCLK.

Quote:
most of them even sit there running PCmark tests flapping their mouse around to make one specific test produce an artificially high score.
Shows just how much you haven't kept up with it.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 18:49   #18
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Benchmark software problem. Not Windows 8.
Wasn't there some big story similar to that back in Vista days? Essentially saying that you can no longer run benchmarks ever again until MICROSOFT solve it, and then wrong they were, benchmark software fixed the issue, and it ended up being not Microsoft fault but rather the benchmark software maker that didn't took some things into account?

In any case, benchmark are 100% useless. Drivers detects them, and execute optimization trick, to downright force reduction of polygons, and not draw things or not properly as it should on the back that is hard to see, to gain the maximum score. Rendering benchmark software as useless as Windows Experience Index.

Real world performance is what maters. So, games for instant.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 20:05   #19
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Benchmark software problem. Not Windows 8.
Wasn't there some big story similar to that back in Vista days? Essentially saying that you can no longer run benchmarks ever again until MICROSOFT solve it, and then wrong they were, benchmark software fixed the issue, and it ended up being not Microsoft fault but rather the benchmark software maker that didn't took some things into account?

In any case, benchmark are 100% useless. Drivers detects them, and execute optimization trick, to downright force reduction of polygons, and not draw things or not properly as it should on the back that is hard to see, to gain the maximum score. Rendering benchmark software as useless as Windows Experience Index.

Real world performance is what maters. So, games for instant.
How is the operating systems real time clock changing pace due to overclocks not an operating system problem?

Benchmarks are not 100% useless. Fine there may be optimisations but if everyone is running the same optimisations or selects their gear accordingly the advantage is wiped out. Real world performance is irrelevant if you are trying to achieve a high score. That is the challenge in benchmarking. Its is not about who can do an excel sheet the fastest its about getting a high score and pushing your gear to the max. Competing and comparing with others.

Honestly, sometimes I think you love Microsoft just a little bit too much.
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Old 19th Aug 2013, 21:55   #20
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It is 100% benchmark software fault. When you decide to make a benchmark software, your measurement algorithm should not be dependent on things.

It's like you design a game but the clock rate to control the game speed, is based on clock cycle and not on actual time (remember the old computer with a Turbo button, that is why we had it. But in this case, clock system was expensive, so not every computer had it). Then you, as a developer, say how the new Intel Core i generation is crap, because your game is too fast, and unplayable. Well I am sorry.. it's your fault. Not Intel fault. Do things right, or don't do it at all.

Beside, looking at benchmark software of Windows 8 result, Windows 8 performance increase on benchmark and real world results, were marginal. So what ever HWBot is freaking out, is for 1-2 points difference, which is not normally the case. So, I call HWBot making a big deal out of nothing.
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