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Other Piracy

Discussion in 'Software' started by Zinfandel, 2 Aug 2010.

  1. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    Exactly, and this is where the root of the problem lies too. Some people see owning applications and games as a right, if they can't afford them, then they are entitled to pirate them. They also think they are not hurting anyone by pirating materials. In the grand scheme of things, there are much worse crimes they could be committing, so why worry if we are acting unlawfully to obtain the latest tune, app or game etc. Who are we really hurting (if anyone) by doing so. I know this mentality exists, because I used the same reasoning when I used to download pirate material myself.

    It's a crazy situation though. If I was to try this reasoning with any other product, in any other retail sector, I wouldn't last long before I found myself in serious trouble. If we do not like the price, quality or brand of a retail item, the only right we have as consumers is whether to buy it or not (obviously we are accorded other consumer rights if we do decide to buy). It's called voting with your wallet!

    Why is it that only in the digital media sector, many people see ownership of the latest and greatest products as a right, regardless of how they obtain the product? We don't see this in any other sector. I could just see the police laughing their tits off because I decided to steal a car because I didn't like the price. As pointed out opinions differ on whether this would be comparable to pirating, but I believe it is, as it's the act of obtaining goods or services without paying for them.

    The fact remains that here in the UK (just for you Elledan:D) it is not lawful (I chose that word carefully Krazeh:D) to obtain or distribute copyrighted materials.
     
  2. adam_bagpuss

    adam_bagpuss Have you tried turning it off/on ?

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    @ Stuartpb

    im not one for pirating and my statement was in reference to justification. BUT i do not believe piracy is stealing at all. Almost everyone who pirates photshop or whatever would not have bought the product to start with so no loss of revenue has occurred.

    It can in fact have a postive effect by promoting product knowledge in general, i have lots of friends who know nothing about PCs etc but they know what photoshop is and possibly later they may invest in it cause it was THE product to have for image editing. I can tell you now they will have no idea what Gimp is or even open office most of them.

    It is illegal however to distribute and obtain (by bypassnig) copywrited material and a lot of people to be perfectly honest dont care because there are no consequences rather than thinking its a RIGHT to have the software.
     
  3. roland777

    roland777 What's a Dremel?

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    If you steal a car, the original owner of that car is no longer able to enjoy use of it. The fact that the owner has been deprived in this way is what makes it theft. The fact that the thief has gained a car is incidental. If one were able to take a car without depriving the owner of its use, that would not be theft.

    I can accept that you have the opinion that you do, what bothers me is that you don't seem to have given the matter much thought before forming this opinion.
     
  4. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    Well I have already said why I totally disagree with your ideas that piracy equates to no financial loss, so I won't go over old ground again. Regards the opinions of those who do pirate, I agree there are many who do so because there are currently perceived to be no real consequences of their actions (when in fact there are, but it's a rare chance that you may be caught). I do still say though, that some see it as a right to pirate copyrighted materials, if they are unhappy with prices etc. That has been evident right here, with every person who has justified piracy with that excuse.
     
  5. RichCreedy

    RichCreedy Hey What Who

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    there is a thriving second hand console market, but that will change, they are looking into ways to lock games to the consoles, this may well be a similar situation, where the game is locked to an account.
     
  6. RichCreedy

    RichCreedy Hey What Who

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    if you dont want to pay the price the seller is asking, you are allowed to barter, i'm not sure if the thing that happens in a restaurant whereby, you pay only what you think its worth, can work in this situation, therefore, you pay something.

    at the end of the day, copyright exists so that the copyright holder, chooses how his works are distributed, copied etc. he is entitled by law to ask for payment for any copies of his work, he is also entitled to pursue in court anyone who copies his work, without his permission.

    it is illegal to copy a work without the copyright holders permission. if however you make a copy and pay the rights holder, a fee, he is unlikely to pursue you, even if that fee is not what he was originally asking.
     
    Last edited: 11 Aug 2010
  7. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

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    Main problem with associating and comparing media privacy with other things like car theft is that they are 2 completely different things.
    It isn't thief, you are making an illegal copy of something. It's more comparable to buying a car and then building an exact replica including the brand/badge of the car. Then handing said cars out.
    Counterfeit clothes would of been a better example heh.

    As for my own personal opinion, it isn't right but it certainly shouldn't be class as a serious crime like thief is.
    Like someone else has said copying and sharing of software has been around since day 1 and no one blinked an eye, what's changed?
     
  8. Krayzie_B.o.n.e.

    Krayzie_B.o.n.e. What's a Dremel?

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    If someone buys something legally then makes a copy of it then gives that copy away for FREE, is this Piracy? To me I say NO.

    Piracy is up because there are more things to pirate I guess. back in the day it was just music now it's software of all types music, movies, and etc.

    I live in the United Police States of America and were not allowed to come outside unless we have money to spend. So on days that we are broke (which is often) we Americans have to entertain ourselves indoors (or get arrested) which means visiting malware and virus filled Ukrainian websites for entertainment.

    I don't participate in this practice because it's more of a headache than fun. I just find ways to manipulate the stock market for my entertainment. It's just like gambling with other peoples money but nobody gets in trouble.

    Most companies view Piracy as the cost of doing business. Just like item X at a store that gets stolen or broken or returned and unsalable for whatever odd reason. I've been told game developers can stop video game Piracy very easily but they just don't do it as an excuse to raise prices.

    See I'm not the only one who like to manipulate the Stock Market.
     
  9. Elledan

    Elledan What's a Dremel?

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    Are those people on crack, perhaps? Maybe they think we are being visited by alien life forms each day as well?

    DRM is like trying to make water not wet. The only way to stop piracy completely is to give everything away for free.
     
  10. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    Actually, that's where you are wrong. I have given the matter a lot of thought. From a moral viewpoint, I do see piracy as theft, even though I have pirated on numerous occasions in my past. From a legal viewpoint, I think the law should treat piracy as theft. Yes the publisher is not losing any physical property from piracy, but he is certainly losing income. It seems that people who pirate do not like being labelled thiefs, it's a label I am uncomfortable with too, but the fact of the matter is that I was affecting a companies profit margin every time I took the concious decision to pirate something instead of paying for it. We can all say that if I had no intention of paying anyway, then there would be no financial loss to the publisher, but that is a simplistic and idealistic viewpoint as far as I am concerned. As already discussed, the upscaling of one single copy uploaded to download sites, means that from one single copy, there could be hundreds of thousands of copies made and utilised.

    If pirate copies were not so readily available, then there would be less people who pirated the material. Also, if there were proper measures in place, whereby those who pirated materials frequently were facing stiffer penalties, then there also may be less people who would take the risk. I see this in my business activities, where I have people from every walk of life and age group, pirating material because they see it as a socially acceptable practice. I think this is wrong. Commercial products are not there for us to obtain unlawfully, as and when we choose, they are there to generate income for the company who produce them. If we don't like the price, find an alternative. If we don't like the company, find an alternative. Just don't try preaching to me that piracy is any less wrong that shoplifting. Because at the end of the day piracy is the act of obtaining goods or services without paying for them, but because it's an online practice, and the odds of being caught are slim to say the least, it's seen as a non-issue by some.

    I also see the effects of piracy within my business. I sell software and MS OS'es, with my servers and workstations, and the amount of times I have heard "my mates got a copy, I don't need that", from clients is absolutely shocking. Publishers are facing this as competition every single day, and then people say that it doesn't hurt the companies.........absolute bollocks!!
     
  11. adam_bagpuss

    adam_bagpuss Have you tried turning it off/on ?

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    Thing is these 2 should statments should be swapped as most of the people that pirate would never have bought the product in the first place. It is most definately not a idealistic view point but rather the most common reason.

    all comes back to the point of 1 pirate copy = 1 lost sale. IT IS 100% NOT, this is not an opinion its fact.

    If your selling servers and workstation im guessing there businesses. This is a very dangerous game for them as its much much easier to get caught as a business and prosecuted for using pirated software using with a massive fine.

    The reason people say it doesnt hurt the companies is that they make millions if not billions of pounds (music especially) every year and then whine that piracy is a massive issue and should be stamped out. Smaller companies that have thier software pirated can be very damaging because every single sale counts in order for the company to expand or even stay afloat BUT... the public dont here about this as all the focus is on massive companies who make stupid amounts of money
     
  12. stuartpb

    stuartpb Modder

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    And this comes back to the dodgy reasoning that pirates use as justification. One pirate copy may not = one lost sale. But from one pirate copy there isn't just one pirate copy. There are normally hundreds of thousands of copies from the initial one. Are you trying to claim that each and every person who obtained a pirate copy wouldn't have gone out and actually bought the product if it wasn't available to pirate? If so, then this is 100% wrong.


    Yes I do sell to the SME sector, but I also sell home PC's and software too (not main activity though). I hear exactly the same from home clients. Granted the penalties are stiffer for businesses, but yet again, it's seen as socially acceptable to do so, even with CEO's who are aware of the consequences. There have been occasions where I have lost the odd client, because I refused to support their systems due to pirate OS'es or apps (both home and SME clients).

    Shoplifters use exactly the same reasoning when they commit their crimes. It's seen as a victimless crime, because the corporation just "write off the expense of shoplifting as just another business cost".
     
  13. Krazeh

    Krazeh Minimodder

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    Seriously, how can you continue to preach about the evils of piracy affecting a company's profit margin and causing the publisher to incur a financial loss while at the same time not having any problem with the exact same thing happening with the second hand market?

    If you want to get worked up about piracy because you think it's morally wrong to break a law then fine. But getting worked up about it because of the financial implications while accepting that secondhand sales are perfectly acceptable is just contradictory and imo somewhat hypocritical.
     
    Last edited: 12 Aug 2010
  14. roland777

    roland777 What's a Dremel?

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    I take it back and apologise - you obviously do seem to have given much thought to this.

    I can see a couple of problems though:

    1) If we say that the loss experienced by the publisher is that of revenue, we then have great difficulty in quantifying this loss. We would need to know how many people who obtained a copy of a piece of software would actually have bought it.

    2) If we say that piracy is morally equivalent to stealing because it causes this loss of revenue, then we have to consider other activities which would also cause such a loss. E.g. (as previously mentioned) the purchase of 2nd hand software. Also consider that the publication of a negative review of a piece of software could also have a huge effect on the revenue of its publisher. I don't think anyone could seriously argue that this is morally the same as theft, even though its effects would be similar to those of piracy.
     
  15. Elledan

    Elledan What's a Dremel?

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    I love it when people claim that I as a future game publisher should consider everyone who illegally obtains a copy of one of our games as a 'thief' and that this spread of our games plus free mouth-on-mouth and other advertising should be counted as a loss of income.

    My business partner and I have looked at it closely and come to the conclusion that a) we can't stop the pirating of our products and b) it can do us a lot of good.

    All DRM is good for is to give the hackers a challenge :)
     
  16. Altron

    Altron Minimodder

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    It doesn't matter how many pirate copies come from how many legit copies. There's still only ONE game. ONE track. ONE movie. ONE program.

    You keep going back to this issue of "Well secondhand sales aren't a big loss, each original copy only goes to one or two extra people, but piracy is a big loss because the pirate copy goes to a million people" and it's just not an accurate model.

    Each original copy sold second-hand may only go onto a handful of extra users, but there are millions of second-hand games sold.

    Whereas with pirated copies, there might only be a handful of original copies that get pirated, but there are millions of people playing those copies.

    I'd hazard a bet that for most newer games, especially console games, the total number of people with secondhand games is higher than the total number of people playing pirated games. It doesn't matter how they got their copy, none of them are paying the devs.

    And, as I've said before, I feel that the price you would have paid for something is almost never zero.

    For those here who do pirate, have you ever pirated something that you would honestly refuse to pay a penny for? Maybe something goofy on a bit-torrent spree, but chances are, any software you've actually gone through the trouble of pirating is worth at least a penny. How about two pennies? a dollar? five dollars?

    You can't say that "most people who pirate software would not have paid for it in the first place". It's just not true.

    You can say "most people who pirate software would not have paid full retail price for it in the first place". That's probably true.

    Let's say you pirate MW2. Infinity Ward says "Well, the MSRP was $59.99, so this piracy cost us $59.99 in potential revenue". Well, that's not true. Who's saying that everyone would have paid full price?
    But the pirates say "Well, $59.99 was too much, we wouldn't have paid for it at all if we didn't pirate it, so it cost IW nothing in potential revenue". That isn't true either.
    They might not have been willing or able to pay $59.99 for the game, but chances are they would have been willing and able to pay something like $10 for the game.
    Now, secondhand sales are interesting, because there are more factors. It depends on whether the first buyer bought the game with intentions to play it and then resell it.
    They might have bought the game for $60, intending to resell it for $20, in which case it is as if two people bought the game to share it, with one paying 2/3rds for the ability to play it first
    If they bought it for $60 because it was worth $60 to them, and resold it for $20 as an afterthought, that second guy would have paid the dev $20, but instead pays the dev nothing.
     
  17. Elledan

    Elledan What's a Dremel?

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    I have pirated software to check it out, including Photoshop CS4 (junk) and CS5 (getting it as soon as I have scraped the cash for it together), because I do not feel that a limited demo is going to give the proper idea of what the app will do for me. Some demos are also so incredibly limited that I could never use it in a workflow to see how it could work there (can't save, use certain features or such limitations).

    With music I pirate a lot because most of the music I listen to would have to be imported from East-Asia at high costs. Only about half of the albums I listen to I would actually pay for, assuming I had the money.

    With movies I often download it just to check it out. A friend of mine sees every movie as soon as it hits the big screen here, and my best friend and I go watch those he likes the most. The ones which are too terrible to watch in the cinema, or which don't run there any more we download and watch at home. Examples are Clash of the Titans (*snort*). My friend actually paid for Transformers 2 and he bitterly regrets buying that POS. My motto is: download and watch before buying :)
     
  18. robots

    robots What's a Dremel?

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    Piracy is a major problem. The argument that not every download is a not a lost sale, only goes so far. Countless thousands or even tens of thousands of downloads are a lost sale, and it can actually make the difference between a game that succeeds, and a game that is considered a commercial failure. It can put companies out of business, and it can and does change the kinds of games we get. With leaner profits the companies are forced to make things even more mass market orientated than they would otherwise need to be. A lot of us complain about the dumbing down of games, and this is a contributing factor.
     
  19. Elledan

    Elledan What's a Dremel?

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    So what does the huge increase of sales after Valve slashed the price of L4D on Steam tell us? To me it screams that games these days are just too bloody expensive. The increasing lack of (useful) demos also isn't helping.

    I'm actively pirating DS games because I'm not going to spend 30+ Euro on a game which I may not like. I buy the games I do like. If I didn't pirate I wouldn't be buying any DS games except maybe an occasional one I borrowed from a friend (I don't know anyone nearby with a DS).
     
  20. thehippoz

    thehippoz What's a Dremel?

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    the reason you probably don't see much done on piracy is it pushes a lot of different sales.. hardware sales and software.. think about it- if you had a total clamp on piracy, a lot of people wouldn't even invest in gaming hardware

    then there's the really expensive corporate apps- I bet a lot of the people working with those apps professionally got their start pirating the software.. it's not all bad

    I just don't like how easy it's become.. when things get napster easy the console crowd comes out of the woodwork- they can afford to buy games but it's so easy to pirate pc.. they get their snufalufagus paws on it
     

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