That brings us nicely onto the subject of what animals we farm.. Now, most farmed animals, bred for eating, are pretty dumb- chickens, sheep and cows in particular ( pigs do show a little more intelligence by all accounts ) are animals of instinct and show basic 'pack' behaviour for security and to establish a social pecking ordr ( who gets to eat first ). Chimps, dolphins, gorillas & whales however... they are much more intelligent animals with more evolved social systems; they are also for the most part endangered or at risk of being endangered. Farming a highly intelligent, self aware & social species to eat it is disgusting, as is the method of slaughter ( have seen plenty of nasty vids before that long one was posted a few pages back, not like Im just discovering these things out ). Hunting down endangered animals for bush meat is also digusting and shows a total lack of interest in preserving species for future generations & bio-diversity of the natural habbit ( areas not touched by man pretty much )- when all the gorillas are gone alot of people are gonna be screwed pretty much, turning to eating god knows what or starving ( yay, more appeals by oxfam; cant feed 'em, dont breed 'em... Im almost that callous, almost... ). There is a ban on whaling for a very good reason, and the method of killing them... exploding harpoons, drowning, hacked to death with hooks for the sake of tradition*- all disgusting and unsustainable methods of feeding a human population. *Faroe islands annual 'grind'- I do enjoy eating tuna, but only line-caught ones that arent made to suffer for minutes or hours while they drown or suffocate on their own blood. I'd like to think also that the small amount of chicken & beef I eat ( not actually that much really- almost ironic... ) is looked after reasonablly well by british farmers and not subjected to the torture as seen in american abattoires- bolt gun to the brain & throat cut, electrocution causing near instant death- not pretty by any means, but atleast as quick as possible. I think the point that was made about having a veggie UK or even planet as being unrealistic is pretty well made; out of season we have to import a large amount of fruit and vegetables, it is highly unlikely the UK could sustain itself without stockpiling frozen or tinned veg for the winter months when pretty much zilch is being harvested. Foreign countries in warmer climes would have to produce massive amounts of extra crops to feed a veggie population, and that would mean much more green field sites being turned into massive farms, and the use of pesticides would be pretty much required as natural alternatives would result in poorer quality yields and much higher prices ( supply & demand ). How about some of you veggies buy your own plot of land or allotment and see how easy it is to grow enough food for yourselves to live without a supermarket all year round; you'll be dead within 6 months. Ever eaten eggs or drank dairy/ goats milk/ cheese? Animal exploitation > hypocricy
If you go for some of the big 300lb+ yellowfin tuna I'm reasonably confident that being gaffed a couple of times in the flank & gills and then drowning on deck isn't the best way to be killed humanely, Line fishing for the big buggers is more a nod to the environmental / population impact issues surrounding fishing imho. But then they do taste nice, bit of onion, bit of salad cream (hey I hate mayo OK) bit of sweetcorn dropped onto a jacket spud
born vegetarian and stayed that way till a few weeks ago, I'm now vegan. Also it would a be a world effort, not just the UK. so we would not starve at all. They will not have to produce much more at all, the amount of veg that the world could produce for human use without the animal market would sky rocket, more than we would ever need. Like i said before, there would be no starvation in the world, no world hunger, everyone could have sustainable food everyday. We already import most of ware food from other counties, only difference would be instead of dead animals been in shipped, it would be veg. I know this will probably never happen, or even if it did it will be 100's of years from now well after we are all turned into earth and dust.
Has anybody ever told you that your best side is the one shown while leaving? You've shown a brutal amount of ignorance and blind stupidity towards the argument at hand, and refuse to actually do any research beyond a couple highly questionable and biased vegan resources. If you can provide a single link to a reliable, unbiased, peer-reviewed case study of any of the multitude of claims you've made in this thread, you may regain a shred of dignity. As it stands however, I don't feel there is a single person reading this thread who can actually take you, or your position, seriously. The only thing you have managed to get correct is that you can produce more calories per acre with vegetables than you can with animals. Though this completely ignores the half of the year where most farms cannot physically grow vegetation of any variety due to climate conditions. North America (generally speaking) has six months worth of workable growing time. The UK has a slightly longer season, being just a hair over eight months. Other parts of the world are limited by the seasons in which there are actually usable quantities of precipitation (most tropical areas). What this means is that, to actually maintain an animal-free diet and lifestyle, we would have to furiously grow crops (almost abandoning current crop-rotation standards due to demand for vast quantities of particular crops) during the seasons wherein we can, then stock-pile as much of it as we could in hopes that it wouldn't go off before it was eaten. The real bad news about this? The nutritional load within fruit and vegetables tends to dwindle as they sit. As well, those fruits and vegetables that are most nutritious for us (and which would sustain us in a world without meat) would generally be the first to go off. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want my diet entirely controlled by the weather! And all of this says nothing of those with compromised digestive systems that require nutrient-rich meat in order to sustain themselves (as in the case of Kayin discussed earlier). There is also the percentage of the population that are deathly allergic to gluten and other various plant-only allergens. Should these people just starve for your idealistic "utopia"? None of this even begins to approach upon most agricultural experts opinion that, at most, we can feed six billion people through vegetative farming alone. Which two billion people do you want to ask to die? This is a fun sheet. Notice on there where it says rather specifically that lack of animal protein is a rather large problem? Yeah, I did too. The simple fact is that you are simply wrong, Otis. You can survive on a diet consisting entirely of lentils and soy. Most of the human population cannot. Such a luxury is only available to those with a very specific set of genetics that allow them to utilize almost entirely only half of their digestive systems potential. We're omnivores, and can eke out a living within an either-or dietary situation. However, there are countless examples of how we need meat. As a rule: if you have a medical need to supplement your diet with pills containing the vitamins and nutrients required to keep you alive, then your diet isn't sufficient to keep you alive. Every single one of the vitamin and nutrient deficiencies that are commonly observed within those that choose to eschew a mixed diet in favour of grinding up grass are unheard of within people whom consume a balanced diet of meat, fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts, berries, and other sources either local or imported. There is also a flip-side to this coin: diets excessively high in fats and calories (either from plant or animal sources) does seem to have a causal link to cancer. Animal sourced nutrients do tend to be coupled with higher quantities of both fat and calories, which is why it is important to have a balanced diet, but by no means should one misconstrue the data towards a knee-jerk reactionary conclusion such as "meat causes cancer", as most seem to have done. There is also a corollary link between hot beverages and certain types of oral cancer. Maybe we should all be raw-foodists then? To sum it all up: any argument or study proposed by a detractor of the animal industry is either misinformed, taking the study out of context, or out and out lieing. Our digestive system is designed specifically for the uptake of nutrients and energy from both plant and animal sources. To miss one from our diet puts a strain on our digestive systems, and compromises our immune system and bodily growth and maintenance. One can eke out a living on plant matter alone, but that isn't a life I would want to live. A final point to the evangelicals proposing a moral system based upon biblical texts: take a careful read through Deuteronomy (21:18-21 is a good quote), almost all of Matthew, good parts of Leviticus, and 2 Kings (2:23-24 is my favourite). Your argument is silly and out-dated.
I was checking where you draw the line... basically you will never do anything that hurts of makes an animal suffer, you will never use any by-products of animals and "no animals used in any way for profitable means", right?
Good points and thanks for the abuse that time of the month? But as you may expect im not going to even etempt to read all of what you linked, it would take me weeks, i suspect you have not read them ether. But I did read your ambisius post and to focus on the "To sum it all up" section: Im not saying the human body does not do a good job of digesting animal flesh, what i am saying we don't need to, and only still do out of luxury and convenience. And to say vegan suffer from deficiency is absurd, every vegan i know is fitter, heather than most animal eaters, i go "running" with them every week along with other activity's to know this. I help Veggies catering events that educate people about how be eat better and have a good animal free balanced diet. Also I have higher energy levels, faster recovery rate (protein needed for muscle recovery), than my animal eating mate who comes with me to the gym 3 times a week, i out perform him in everything 3 or 4 times over (weights, running, biking, rowing ect) Ill agree that some veggie's and vegans just dont get on with the diet, and produce skin problems ect, iv seen this first hand, but that is 90% down to not knowing what you have to eat, you have to do your homework and go out your way to eat certain foods to sastain a good level of nutriance. I also have a doctor and gym fitness instructor monitor my heath and progress. You may give me text based articles, but I'm the living proof that is none debatable, along with countless others that your claim that we NEED meat or other animal products is total rubbish. And mite I add that i use NO supplements that I wouldn't otherwise need. So we don't need meat or i would be dead..... simple as that really. Can I ask as well, would you explain to me why some humans need animal protein instead of other protein? isnt protein, protein? no matter where it comes from? (genuine question) Granted, i will take back that a vegan world would mean no one would starve Iv not really looked into backing that up, no one has to now really, its just we are to greedy and wasteful at the moment. But i must say about fruit nuts ect, we can still import all year round.... you still see them in supermarkets in December don't you? so why not in the vegan world? The land that is no longer used for animal farming in including animal feeder (which is a huge amount may i add), can be used to then grow the extra none animal food we would need, creating more food than the animals would of resulted to before as you so kindly agreed with me. Some links you may want to look at?: http://www.vegansociety.com/resources/environment.aspx http://www.vegansociety.com/lifestyle/nutrition/ http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFront/liberationguide.pdf http://www.notmilk.com/kradjian.html http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=article_rightallalong http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=article_veganism_and_environment Also have look around this site, and look at the videos and articles on there: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/index.html Who is the terrorist? the one that creates terror, or the one that ends it? The one about the monkey been tested on is simply fantastic, and shows what good work is done by Animal Rights groups. And a Film you should watch if you have the guts: http://www.moviesfoundonline.com/earthlings.php Cant blame you if you don't, its horrific, but people like you make it all happen. You seem to insult me fine behind your little computer screen, but if we was having this talk face to face I don't think you would be so..... forth coming.
correct I'm planning on some tattoos before the end of the year if I can get an appointment, and for 2011. I have to travel miles to find a vegan tattoo's as there is animal products in normal tattoo ink. Shampoo, shower-gel Clothing (including shoes) Medical needs The list goes on....
lets see.... considering that when you say animal you say all animals with no exception, including humans. Therefore: You will refuse treatments that were tested on or manufactured from animals, so no vaccines, heart valves, etc.... You will refuse to eat vegetables treated with pesticides because that kills animals. You will refuse to receive treatment if you are infected by parasites. You will refuse to eat anything that is transported by plane (kills birds), car (kills terrestrial animals) or boat (kills aquatic animals). Because you said that "no animals used in any way for profitable means" you will also refuse to eat anything that was transported on animal drawn vehicles. You will refuse to use wind power (kills birds), solar power (destroys habitats) and coal power (destroys habitats). You will refuse to live in a tall building (kills more birds than wind turbines) or have glass windows (kills birds). You will never kill any rat, ant, spider, roach, snails or any common pest. Basically you will never do anything that hurts of makes an animal suffer Do you still consider your utopian view of "no animals used in any way for profitable means" doable?
To the above, yes. If I have knowledge that the product/treatment is used in that way. But there are alternatives to most if not all of them This is where my line is drawn, I have eat to survive like anyone. But I do the best I can to only use animal friendly products. And are you sure tall building kills birds? and wind turbines? not calling you a lier, i just have no knowledge of this.
There is a great on youtube of a bird being diced by a wind turbine, and plenty of birds fly into buildings as they cant see the glass- you just here a thud and see the imprint of a birdy on the window. Living in an 100% animal friendly manner is just impossible, so I'll continue to be grateful for the meat & fish I eat. In the end though, the earth will die and all life will be extinguished, so whats the point of worrying?...
Otis: I've asked you to provide non-biased evidence for your argument, and you've failed to do so. Thus I feel your argument is rather childish and routed in your ignorance towards reality and those around you, and should be summarily ignored. You've contributed nothing, and keep giving the same misinformation over and over again. As to your question of animal protein over vegetable protein: read up on the differences, as they're vast. I've provided a limited amount of information within my last post as to the key differences, but this doesn't do justice the differences between the two sources. And yes, I have read them already, along with rather a lot more studies that I'd be happy to link you to, though I'd feel the effort would be wasted. If it's not a vegan certified website, you'll just ignore it - this much you've demonstrated. On a final point I wish to take apart this next small piece of hypocrisy: You may give me text based articles, but I'm the living proof that is none debatable, along with countless others that your claim that we NEED meat or other animal products is total rubbish. And mite I add that i use NO supplements that I wouldn't otherwise need. First: anecdotal evidence does not, under any circumstance, equate to truth. By this logic I would easily be able to sustain myself indefinitely on a packet of crisps, as I can happily live off them for a good long while. Secondly: you admit that you need supplements in addition to those "that [you] wouldn't otherwise need". If your diet is balanced and includes all the vitamins and minerals the body needs, then no supplements of any sort are required. Therefore, if your diet requires supplements, then you're diet is insufficient for your metabolic needs. If your rationale is one of exercise being your requirement of supplements (either of wheat gluten, protein, calcium or anything of the sort), then you've either been misinformed, or are deluded. For anecdotal evidence: I work out seven days a week for a minimum of two hours a day (more on weekends); I know about two dozen professional and amateur athletes from all sorts of categories (running, triathletes, cycling, swimming, climbing). Guess how many utilize supplements as part of their diet? Only one of them, and he is not one of the professionals I know. He also happens to be a vegetarian. If I apply your logic: only vegetarians require supplements! You're pissing on your own shoes here...
You would rather die of an infection than receiving treatment? And this is what I was expecting. Your impact on the animal life of this planet is as big as mine, enjoy your stay . All condensed here: http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/wind-turbine-kill-birds.htm edit: also forgot to mention that you will refuse to have animals as pets.
I think that you will find this is subjective to the person. Everyone is different and although we all share a common genetic thread different races have evolved seperately depending on environmental surroundings and that includes the immediate food stuffs available to a given population. This means that most people have a different metabolism and can extract different levels of nutrients from different food stuffs. For example, a recent study showed that it is more unhealthy for western white people to consume rice everyday as opposed to eastern people. This is because of the thousands of years that eastern cultures have relied on rice as their main food stuff and consequently their metabolisms have evolved to benefit from that diet. This means that they can extract more energy from rice as opposed to converting it to fat. It is highly possible that your metabolism is much more suited to digesting vegetables and consequently is very efficient at extracting everything you need from them, whereas a meat eater has an entirely different metabolism which may not be as efficient. I'm sure that different food stuffs have different levels of protein in them but logically the amount of protein that the body requires and can extract from any given food stuff will be variable and depends entirely on the person. Oh and thanks for the links interesting stuff.
@Malfoleo are you seriously saying you can't survive on a veggie diet? Or are you saying that a diet including only veg is less efficient that one than includes meat? if the former then you are incorrect if the latter then I'm presuming you eat a diet of maximum efficiency each and every day. personally I eat veg, fish meat however not with maximum efficiency given the occasional sweetie, alcohol, burger, fried food, saturated fats, artificial preservatives,colours etc..... these are not veggies http://www.google.com/images?q=fat+...itle&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQsAQwAA&biw=835&bih=600 now as a point of note.... animals eat raw meat and raw plants.... indeed given that vegetables didn't even exist until man developed them... animals ate raw meat, grasses, berries. Man today could not survive on raw meat, grasses, berries as our guts could not extract the energy required. Man today is not 'natural' he has bred and created his own environment (as have some ants etc...)
Otis1337 i also forgot to say that considering your status you must also refuse to use anything made from plastic unless you recycle it later, and the plastic that you will use must not be made from crude oil. Why, oil extraction kills thousands of animals and destroys habitats and discarted plastic causes lots of problems, google Great Pacific Garbage Patch. also: http://www.ecologycenter.org/factsheets/plastichealtheffects.html PB is not responsible for the oil spill, we are and so are you. edit: i also call BS on this one:
Iv not used supplements in my while life until a few weeks ago, and that is only to help me with my body building at the gym, if you ask anyone that does the same no matter of the diet they will take protein powderer its totally normal, it just increases your muscle recovery rate so then when you go back to the gym you can work at 100% again. again i dont need them at all, its just a boost, that even a animal eater would benefit from. Iv been veggie for 20 years no supplements at all. I find it funny that your still believe that vegans/veggies need supplement to live healthy.... You would develop serious health issues very fast, where a vegan diet made up of everything and anything nature has to offer other than animal products is a perfectly balanced diet that i could carry out till the day I die with no health problems at all if carried out correctly. I just have to eat a varied amount of foods to do this. I'm sure I have linked sites that show this. No problem It really isn't tho is it... lets not get carried away now ok ok ok, see what your getting at here, it seems to be close to imposable to avoid making some sort of impact on the environment or wildlife in the modern way of living ill rethink the statement your questioning I think... i will avoid any animal products to the best of my ability and knowledge.... I think that is better? but you get the idea, i just do what i can practically. But I'm deadly serious when I say I would happy risk my freedom and life for the animals.
