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Planning Scratch build planing [20/3 triple loop or one three parted loop?]

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Dragonite, 28 Feb 2011.

  1. ixmatal

    ixmatal What's a Dremel?

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    Sorry for the delayed response, I have a lot of irons in the fire.

    If you prefer to go with the solid aluminum frame, 10mm will be more than enough. It sounds like you don't have ready access to a welder, do you have access to a drill press? or at least a good drill, steady hands, a bullet level, duct tape, a willing friend?

    You can drill and tap holes in the ends of the cross members, say about m5 size, and then drill cross holes in the longitudinal members to line up with them, then the vertical members. The problem with this method is maintaining alignment, you could very easily waste a lot of materials.

    You should ask around a few shops, you would be surprised how many of them "know someone" that has a mig/tig at home a knows how to weld aluminum.

    As for touchscreen displays, you already got the advice that will serve you best, there have been a number of open source projects working on this, and the liliputs are pretty standard.

    Now your cooling setup, why push pull? The diff between that and just push alone is ~1d, not worth the effort, added cost, or wasted space in my opinion. When considering running dual vs single loop, IIRC the basic consideration is pressure vs. restriction. When you intend to cool everything plus multiple GPU's then you should really run dual loop because the restriction/backpressure will be so high that the last devices on the loop will see almost no cooling benefit. If you go dual loop then it you need 1 res for each loop, other wise it will still be a single loop with bad pressure on one branch.

    If you decide to run single loop then dual ddc in series will be a necessity. They will give the best pressure. This is inherently safer because if one pump dies the other should keep things cool enough to prevent a complete meltdown.

    Trade-offs for either method, although dual will cost more, it should also provide more consistent cooling.
     
    Last edited: 10 Mar 2011
  2. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    I might actually have a contact with a welder. The people I live with have a friend that runs a metal workshop so will maybe borrow that for some metal work. However I will use screws and rivets since it will probably be much cheaper in the end. About the drill I'm thinking of buying this one:
    [​IMG]
    It cost about 60€ so that's not so bad and I will have use for it for more then this project. Planing custom WC PS3 case and LAN computer as well.

    Already have both a M4 and M5 tap and planing to buy a 1/4" tap to make custom water reservoir/s. Also will probably only use square bars for the vertical columns and then have just 90° aluminium profiles for the horizontal supports. Then bend them at the edges to have a flat surface against the square bars and then tap and use screws to mount them.

    As for the touch-screen the Liliput seams to be exactly what I need and there seams to be some open source networks that have some nice programs for it too.

    Well then I guess that 2 loops is the only option then. Wonder if I can afford having 2 DCC on each loop so I can get some rely good flow in it and to prevent catastrophic failure even though I will use a controller with a kill Switch that shuts the computer of if the pump breaks. Better safe then sorry though :D
    Will probably have a Core i7 2600K and two nVidia 580 GTX. Won't buy hardware until the project is almost finished and hope the price goes down on them until then :D

    However I'm actually have re planed the whole project a little. Will be building it into my Aluminium bookshelf that I have above my desk to get it of the actual desk and clear up some room. Think I got some inspiration of the L3P Desk :D . The basic idea is like this:
    [​IMG]

    So the case will have the dimensions 80x30x50-65 since the shelves is 80x30.

    So as for the radiators I was going to have it as in the picture above with a 3x140 rad on each side of the motherboard and the MB with the I/O panel facing down and a hidden compartment under the computer where I can hide all the cables and then make a cable channel under the aluminium shelves. The radiators will blow out air at the back since it will be about 3-4 cm of space between the shelf and the wall since the bars that hold it is that thick.
    Just wonder if that will be enough for the i7 2600K, the two 580GTX, motherboard, RAM:s and possibly the hard-drives as well. There would be room for two 4x140 radiators though will have to make it 65 cm tall for that.
    I do have a 2x120 radiator that I only used for 2 months until I stopped using since the a mosfet on the MB exploded and I upgraded from Socket 754 to AM2 and then the system didn't fit any more and I never came around to buy new blocks. I could use that radiator in the top and cool the rest except the CPU and GPU:s and have three loops since they don't give of so much heat.

    Want to overclock as well so wonder if two 3x140 and a 2x120 will be enough?

    I could maybe go with two 4x140 radiators on the sides but then I will have to make it so damn tall as it isn't large enough already :p I could make room for two 3x140 radiators on both sides and just install one and leave the other place empty for future upgrade if needed later since there will be enough room for it :p

    Another option if I want to have some overkill I could place two 9x120 or 4x180 radiators behind everything and then put all the hardware in front to hide them.

    Considering the hardware passive water cooling is no option I would presume or I could put 15 Alphacool Cape Cora Pro behind the whole thing and maybe use some 200mm fans to make it a little bit active just to get the lowest possible sound on the computer which is the main reason for going with water cooling.
    Tired of sitting next to a aircraft :wallbash::miffed:

    Just worried about the PSU fan :worried: Was planing to use the Corsair HX1000 since apart from all the other stuff I will have lots of LED:S and 8 HDD so it could be needed if I'm going to do some overclocking. One option would be the Koolance 1000ATX-12N but 360€ is a little bit too much considering the rest of the computer already will damage my wallet for a long time :p

    About the design then it won't be a boring old square case as the picture might show. All the shelves and the table have rounded of edges I'm just not skilled enough and had the time to do it when I drew that in Sketchup. So the computer will follow the same similar design. A little rounded of on the edges to give it a little more softer edges. Will also do some custom fangrills and some other interesting things :p Will maybe try some etching on the window to make it stand out some more
     
    Last edited: 18 Mar 2011
  3. cchr

    cchr Minimodder

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    seeing the design you are thinking about, the transition from a regular case to a desk mounted-one, is fine if you dont plan on moving any time soon. however, if there is any need to move your pc, my thought is the following, build the case as you designed it, but make it removable, either by creating a sliding base, or a few holes to screw the feet of the case.
    if you decide on going for the fully mounted case, then go a bit wild, dont put the lilliput on the case, mount it somehow on your shelves, maybe your dvd/bd roms can be also embedded on the desk, same with the usb hub.
    a desk mounted pc is a cool idea, but i honestly dont see any difference in your design than a regular case, other than the fact that it will be screwed on the desk.
    just my 2 cents.

    cheers,
    chris
     
  4. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    It won't actually be screwed on. I was thinking in the line of adding the same hock thing that's on the shelves so I can simply hang it on the wall mounted rails. About having holes for feet was also in my mind already but yeah that is a good idea. About having USB hub and card-reader mounted in a shelve I was already considering don't know about the DVD drive though. Could maybe go with a portable drive but That would require additional AC-DC converter I need to put somewhere. Will also do some neat cable management since it's a a 3 cm gap under the shelves to the edge of them. So maybe cover the bottom in plexi to hide it all away. This was just a quick draft I sketched up to show the basic idea of it. Maybe a will go with a more modular set-up with the radiators hidden away on the top shelf and a quick connector system so I can take the individual parts separate. Maybe even use the shelves themselves for cooling since they are aluminium after all. Also was planing to have 3 screens in the future as well and build a special mount for it to remove it from the desk. The shelf system is very modular and there is a allot of different option in how to build it all. I'm still in the planing stadium so much can change before I will start the actual building. That's why I made this thread to help pitch some ideas. I have never built any scratch build before. Only some normal case modding on my Lian Li PC 71 but I'm fairly good with tools so it's not going to be a problem building it. So I thank you for your advice and will take that into consideration :D
     
  5. ixmatal

    ixmatal What's a Dremel?

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    In reality a single 3x140 will handle both GPU without a problem, and you can run CPU/RAM/NB/SB on the other 3x140 without a problem as well. If you decide to watercool the drives, then I would run only 2-3 drives per 2x120.

    But that will be only be a small sound reduction compared to a good air-cooled setup.

    If you are serious about controlling noise pollution, then you will need about double the radiator surface area in order to be able to throttle the fans so that they are near silent and still be able to get good cooling.

    There are a -lot- of trade offs when you start talking about going silent, and they almost always involve more $$$ and time.
     
  6. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Would two 9x120 or 4x180 radiators be enough to get down the sound pollution then?
    Or should I in the design make room for four 3x140 radiators and then start of with two and buy the additional two when I have the money?

    Will make room for six or eight disks in the build but I will not use all the slots from the start and will get more disk further into the future. Have six disks as it is now nut one will probably stay in the old computer so ill be 5 to start with. Going to have SSD as main drive though so the drives will be only for storage but I don't know if they actually get warmer with more load or not. I would guess they do though :p
    So then I would have to get more then the 2x120 radiator for the disks as well. What would be enough to cool 8 HDD with and have low sound pollution? Or is air-cooling the drives better in this case? Some sound pollution would be ok I'm used to a airplane so some sound I would be ok with as long as it sounds less then it does now.

    I could make the radiator compartment sound isolated to try and remove the sound though. Don't know how effective it would be though since it would still need fan-holes to draw in and expel air. Maybe a should make a separate case for the radiators and have them hidden away somehow. Perhaps make holes in the wall and have them in another room like L3P did :p That could work at least where I live until January next year. Though that would be a little extensive since I will need 6 tubes to it with 3 separate loops :confused:
     
  7. ixmatal

    ixmatal What's a Dremel?

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    Short answer: yes, you could go with the 9x120/9x140/4x180 radiators

    Long answer:

    You are asking the right questions, at the right phase of your project, but I think you need to take the time to do more homework. You said you had a few months before you could buy anything anyway. Checkout sites like OCN, XS, OC's, HOCP, and dig through the WC articles until your questions are answered.

    There is a lot of math involved in coming up with the best solution, and unfortunately the only person with the numbers to plug in is you - the builder. I am only making educated guesses based on your speculation so there is a large margin of error. And the higher the $$$ of the proposed build = that much more that the builder really should know about what it is that they are getting themselves into.

    I know this sounds like a brush off, but please don't take it that way. I have seen several really good people build huge systems in the last year only to be layed off and have to sell off everything just to keep food on the table. I don't want to steer you into a situation like that.
     
  8. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Well I know that research is good and was planing that too however I'm also in somewhat of a time sensitive place atm. Aiming to get into University after the summer so there is allot of pre studies I need to do. So was hoping to skip the part about doing the WC research as well to save some time. Though maybe it will actually save some time further on if I know more on what I'm actually doing instead of just following instructions :p When the project is actually starting the school stuff would already be done so then I got more time to build.

    Thanks for your concern but that won't be a issue. If something the build will only go slow for some time but there will be no food shortage :D
     
    Last edited: 17 Mar 2011
  9. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Had some thoughts about the radiator cooling. In the new design there will be radiator chambers on each side. The intake will be in the front and blow out the back. I was thinking of some custom fan intakes but that would require that I place the fan a little more apart then just next to each others. So if I do it like that and then just put the radiators a bit behind the fans but place it so that no air can pass on the sides and need to go through the actual radiator to get out. My logic say it shouldn't be any problem but I want to double check that. My logic have been wrong before :p

    Was maybe thinking of using 2 layers of fans as well that are put together like a long double fan. Does that work or is it better cooling to have them to pull out air through the back instead? I know someone mentioning that push pull configuration didn't do so much but since I will be planing for 2 radiators that are in-line with each other then I should probably have more then one set-up of fans.
     
  10. D-Mon Taurus

    D-Mon Taurus What's a Dremel?

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    Like you I to have been planning a build. The idea is in the head at least cause I can't seem to find some info to start the design.

    Now I do know 1mm aluminium sheeting is more then enough on a frame of 10x10mm aluminium staff.

    The idea in my head is also a completely screwless outside and without use of glue.

    There is one problem I have with my build and that is the exact measurements of the back plate. And then specially the pci bracket bit just no info on that at all and its basicly the part I am building my design around
    All that I read is very similar to my design. no screws on the outside have a separate lcd for fan control etc. Your planning thread helped me a lot as well overcoming some problems and giving me a reason to read up on some more details I want to incorporate into my build

    I wish you good luck on your planning:thumb: and future build
     
  11. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Glad I could help :D
    Might have some contact with a metal workshop so that I can maybe weld or bend the aluminium so that it will work without having any visible screws :D
    Think there is some information about the exact measurement on the ATX plate. Saw them before but decided not to use it and will use a plate from a old chassis.

    Made a new design that I think will work a little bit better. After some advise from cchr this is what I came up with.

    [​IMG]

    The three display set-up is just future wishful thinking :D Though it's the plan to have it like that eventually.
     
  12. cchr

    cchr Minimodder

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    isn't that kind of dangerous?:worried:
    btw, that wasn't what i had in mind:D
     
  13. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    What is kind of dangerous? To have the case in the air like that? Not going to be a broblem will hook it onto the wall mounted rails with two hooks in 4mm aluminium on both sides so I think it will hold :p

    So what did you have in mind then? I could try and make the case smaller but considering I was planing to cram in 8 drives with W/C and a power supply behind the motherboard I will probably need that space :D
     
  14. cchr

    cchr Minimodder

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    What i had in mind was for it to slide in on rails that are on the same level with the desk. if you want it to be wall mounted, may i suggest rotating it by 90 degrees, so that you will need (perhaps) more but shorter rails. i believe that the weight distribution will be better.
    Cheers,
    Chris
     
  15. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Well it's a bookshelf system that I already own and the rails can't be mounted in any different way then 80cm apart. The weight won't be that much problem since they are hanging on a bar in the top with 8 screws. So the dimensions are already fixed for the shelves so I was just planing it on how they already are. My table is in tempered glass so was unsure if I wanted to but too much weight on it so the other option would have been to simply have it stand on one of the shelves. Though since I won't move it around anyway I thought I could just as well have it mounted on the rails directly and free up that shelf to have elsewhere.
     
  16. ixmatal

    ixmatal What's a Dremel?

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    If I understand your fan placement question correctly, then what it amounts to is a "shroud" basically, and that should be just fine.

    Using 2 layers of fans on one side in a push configuration would actually give marginally better air pressure through the radiator, which could result in better cooling capacity - though not necessarily better temps. - i.e. - the system will always only be able to bring the water temp down to a few degrees above ambient air temperature, but with better pressure through the radiator the system can dissipate more heat.

    That is really only valid for a given air speed. So if you do the math, your fans would have to spin ~1900 rpm in order to achieve the best speed/pressure ratio. This would of course create much more noise, so it is basically another trade-off.

    How much noise are you willing to tolerate vs cooling capacity vs cost/complexity of the setup?
     
  17. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    Hmm any lower then the system I have now would be nice. Haven't measured it yet since I don't have a dB meter. Some noise is acceptable and I have music on all the time but now I can hear the computer over the music and that's rather annoying.

    Considering the hardware I will use will generate allot of heat then it could be good with double layers of fans. Though I wonder if it give better cooling if I have a push/push or a push/pull configuration? And yes I was planing to build a custom shroud solution to direct the airflow to only pass through the radiators.
     
  18. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    I was planing to do a triple loop though I was wondering if I could just do one big loop but have it divided in 3 parts where I have one reservoir, pump and radiator in each part. So basically it will go like this.

    Res1-Pump1-Rad1-GPU-Res2-Pump2-Rad2-CPU-Res3-Pump3-Rad3-MB-Ram-HDD-Res1...

    This would in my logic help with temperature equalization and keep a good flow through the whole system or would it be better to just have 3 different loops?
     
  19. D-Mon Taurus

    D-Mon Taurus What's a Dremel?

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    From the many threads i have been lurking LOL and read i don't think 3 loops will be all that different from lets say a 2 loop setup.
    Cooling the ram with water is purely ecstatic looks and not that necessary
    I would lets say add the MB to the same loop as the GPU and put the MB first and add the memory to the loop with the CPU.
    With the HDD i haven't got any information.
     
  20. Dragonite

    Dragonite Minimodder

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    ok that sound as a good idea. Actually for the visual effect a 2 loop setup would be better since I could use a red and a blue coolant. Don't know what I would have as a third color :p
    Could build the loop as you suggest and then do the HDD on the 2x120 rad I have but since the HDD will be completely hidden behind the MB it won't matter much there.
     

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