Girl saying the tsunami in Japan is an answer to her prayers.

Not me, before my parents divorced they were fighting non- stop, and I'm no thug! True though, I try to stop myself saying things like "thank god" or "god knows" but that's because of religious teaching at a young age. In a catholic school like mine, we don't have the option of whether we want to do re as a GCSE or not. Pretty much by force.

 

can tell you know what your talking about.. this is the main argument you'll hear quite a bit even by people you wouldn't expect.. heck my own girlfriend says this all the time, and it's probably why a lot of people break away from the catholic/baptist church

it's not a pill a lot of people are willing to swallow.. especially when you hear a preacher say things like this.. I don't think anyone who says these things knows what they're talking about.. they are forcing beliefs again- same old stuff agendas

far as the other arguments about you can't have your cake and eat it too

that's atheism in a nutshell

 

Can you please elucidate as to how atheism tries to have its cake and eat it too?

 

"There are two great powers," the man said, "and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."


"When you stopped believing in God, did you stop believing in good and evil?"
"No. But I stopped believing there was a power of good and a power of evil that were outside us. And I came to believe that good and evil are names for what people do, not for what they are. All we can say is that this is a good deed, because it helps someone, or that's an evil one, because it hurts them. People are too complicated to have simple labels."


"She said that all the history of human life has been a struggle between wisdom and stupidity. She and the rebel angels, the followers of wisdom, have always tried to open minds; the Authority and his churches have always tried to keep them closed."


"I remember. He meant the Kingdom was over, the Kingdom of Heaven, it was all finished. We shouldn’t live as if it mattered more than this life in this world, because where we are is always the most important place."
"He said we had to build something…"
"That’s why we needed our full life, Pan... we wouldn’t have been able to build it. No one could if they put themselves first. We have to be all those difficult things like cheerful and kind and curious and patient, and we’ve got to study and think and work hard, all of us, in all our different worlds, and then we’ll build…"
"And then what?" said her Dæmon sleepily "build what?"
"The Republic of Heaven."

--His Dark Materials Trilogy; Philip Pullman



"I'm caught between the words 'atheistic' and 'agnostic'. I've got no evidence whatever for believing in a God. But I know that all the things I do know are very small compared with the things that I don't know. So maybe there is a God out there. All I know is that if there is, he hasn't shown himself on earth.
But going further than that, I would say that those people who claim that they do know that there is a God have found this claim of theirs the most wonderful excuse for behaving extremely badly. So belief in a God does not seem to me to result automatically in behaving very well.
When you look at organised religion of whatever sort — whether it's Christianity in all its variants, or whether it's Islam or some forms of extreme Hinduism — wherever you see organised religion and priesthoods and power, you see cruelty and tyranny and repression. It's almost a universal law." --Philip Pullman

 

it's the whole ignorance is bliss argument.. they know it all- what do they care what anyone else thinks.. there's no debate to be had

I look at a peacock spread feathers and see something amazing.. you think it's because somehow it was stressed into being that way.. it's just seeing things in a different light..

it's sort of like anything else.. pride before the fall.. easier to accept the earth was flat before they found out otherwise.. heck it maybe flat but until we know for sure.. it's kind of foolish to put all your money on red when there's a chance, black will let you own the casino I don't want to be the one surprised when it all goes to pot

 

Except that's not what atheism is. People like that will be like that regardless of what they believe or don't believe. At the end of the day atheism, if anything, promotes the asking of questions about the world around you because it doesn't try to fill in the gaps with supernatural entities.

 

I've yet to meet an atheist that thinks that they know it all, to me that seems a trait that I see more often in theistically-minded people. Yet that's just my opinion, and basically mud-slinging, so please feel free to ignore it.

What I do know is me. As a part of my degree, I know more on many topics than most. Yet I am aware that compared to experts on said topics that I know nothing. I am also aware that the experts know nothing compared to the possible knowledge on that topic. To me that seems the most common viewpoint on knowledge held by scientists (and atheists) as opposed to a know-it-all attitude.

You also fail to appreciate that somebody can appreciate beauty in a scientific context. When I see beauty, that is only enhanced by an understandingof how it came about, not diminished. I don't look at a peacock and think, "That's cool, but it's only evolution." I think, "Wow, it's amazing that evolution has produced such a thing, and it is even more astounding and beautiful for how it came about."

Your final paragraph sounds like Pascal's Wager. There are many rebuttals to that in this thread, which I am not going to bother to repeat.

Also, thanks to Nexxo for sharing Phillip Pullman's excellent insights. Inspired me to go read His Dark Materials once againb despite impending exams.

 

If I understand you correctly (the punctuation makes it difficult) then I disagree. I find that far more atheists and agnostics are willing to engage in debate both with others of their kind and religious people alike. I am frequently able to debate with my dad (a devout Sikh) about his beliefs, my beliefs and the issues I see with our religion. I am far more familiar with the Abrahamic religions today than I was 3 years ago, so I discuss them pretty often with my Muslim, Christian and Jewish friends.

From my own experience, of the many people that I talk religion with, it is the religious that do not care what the other party thinks, that believes ignorance is bliss and are the most obtuse in discussions.

When I look at a peacock, I see the same thing as you - beauty. The 'why' doesn't enter my mind unless I'm in a bio class. In that case, I know that overwhelming evidence points to the fact that the peacock does what he does and looks the way he looks because that increases his chances with the ladies and therefore the odds that his species will continue to survive. I'm not sure how or whether the reason for the peacock's beauty changes that beauty in any way. You and I are not seeing the beauty of the bird in different light.

I'm sorry, but I cannot respect that attitude towards anything. From what I understand, you're religious, or at least believe in god, because he might exist and you just want to be on his good side if he turns out to be a mean ol' horrible beast?

 

Neil, I hope you realise that my life is now complete from having a post replied to in the form of an xkcd comic. I love you and hope you enjoy this rep.

 

I've seen it in any type of person, from any background, any belief system. I think it arises most often when an athiest and a religious person get at it and they both think of each other that way. Usually though it's just that they don't understand each other and/or want to understand each other.

I love that quote. I hope it's not trying to imply that religion is always the "obey and submit" factor. It's pretty equally drawn out throughout history between secular and religious forces, so i think it's safe to say that it has more to do with greed and power than it has to do with religious beliefs.

 

not mixing atheists and agnostics together, they are not the same.. yeah we talked about pascals wager as kayin brought it up in one of the earlier posts

if you've seen a peacock up close it's a pretty amazing bird.. think I have a picture of one when we were up at japanese gardens a couple years back

had some rays coming down on the little bridge they have.. it's almost ridiculously complex- just one of those things that has you scratching your head- sure athiest it's female competition because, what else could it be..



xD I kind of like the idea.. but when you look at a peacock up close (nm the mexican family behind the peacock..) you'll see why it's a topic of interest in the case of evolution not being the right fit here..



the 100k year old tools.. it's stretching it- it's like when they found leprachauns and the baby tools they supposedly used

 

Plenty of animals use color or size variations to attract mates, ward off predators and so on.

How about chameleons, Coral snakes, False Cobras. Chameleons are cool but I don't look at a chameleon and go "well that's a stroke of luck".

EDIT: As for peacocks, I don't like them very much, apart from admiring their beauty. They've buggered up my weekends for nearly 20 years (they go ape sh*t at 5am for some reason), they harassed my cats and buggered up my mum's garden.

 

Since when are fractal structures not pervasive in nature?

 

just the way I see things myself.. you can explain anything given enough time and have it all make sense

I know probably catch flak for your point on hell viper.. but I look at it the same way- what if someone doesn't know about god at all.. does that mean they go to hell? if you come out of some of the greatest faith based colleges, you'll hear yeah it does =E

but my line of thinking is.. if it doesn't make sense it's probably not true.. noone will ever get me to believe that line of thinking.. and why is there even a hell to begin with is another good question to ask if your really interested in religion.. I tend to question more (well nowdays) why things happen then try to answer all of the others (you could rak your brain forever trying to speculate and come up with scenarios that fit)

the only thing that made sense to me, in order to answer the question of "do we have a soul?" was when they started cloning.. and that failed.. it seems the more science digs, the more tangled the question seems to get

pretty much narrowed it down.. well in my opinion at least.. if they could clone a person or find alien life on other planets (probably be found by seti first).. that would open the door to taking a serious look into my own beliefs

because with a clone having the same traits, that would put us in the physical with no spiritual component involved.. and alien life would show life has the ability to spawn by itself without help

I kind of believe micheal moore is an orangutan too I know this doesn't have much to do with evolution- but it gives you a more clear picture on why I see things like the peacock with more skepticism- and I don't see us as a branch of monkeys

it's not because I don't like the 'facts' you present.. because the way nexxo explained it does make sense and totally fits.. just imo there's other things that need to be proven before science can call it a day on creation

 

Just curious, do animals have souls?

 

A lot of what we know to be true makes no sense at all. Quantum mechanics? I'm not an expert on physics (in fact it's a branch of science I know next-to-nothing about), but the fact that something is in two places at once makes zero sense to me. But the evidence says it is. A lot of things make no sense to us, as we're stuck with our hairless ape perceptions of the world, which are not always necessarily what is really there, just the perception of the world that helps us to survive. Of course you could use this line of reasoning to argue for an incomprehensible God, but the difference here is evidence. You need some pretty convincing evidence to argue for something that to a rational person seems nonsensical.

I'm pretty sure it's not just cloning failing, but the lack of ethical justification to carry it through. Also note that the failure of cloning is not a, "We can clone animals just fine, but humans are impossible." In fact, cloning in any form is quite difficult, with relatively low success rates, with primates being very difficult to clone successfully. I feel that that is a convincing argument against the unique nature of humans with regard to cloning.

I also have to correct the idea that clones are physically identical. They are not. They are genetically identical, but may have different physical characteristics. Look up the difference between genotype and phenotype. Finally, I'm going to make the same point about monozygotic twins that has been stated ad nauseam.

I also can't see why aliens would challenge your beliefs (see, I can defend faith too), surely a God who can create us can do the same with aliens, but just saw fit to not mention them to us. Why is His business, as is claimed about many things. Sure, it would challenge many ideas about the specialness of humans, but I'm sure an omniscient and omnipresent God has time for all His creation, regardless of planet.

Nexxo does have a rare way with words, even when they are those of others. And, once again, science does not claim to have all the answers regarding everything, just a pretty good guess on the topics for which we have strong evidence (e.g. evolution). Other things, such as the first few milliseconds of the universe, you will be hard pressed to find any strong claims from the scientific community due to a lack of evidence and understanding.

Therein lies the difference between science and religion, in my opinion and experience. Religion can strongly claim to have answers despite lack of evidence and/or understanding. As for us needing to understand more about creation (by which I mean the origins of the universe), I agree. But that does not make a "God of the gaps" any more valid.

Finally, science can never really call it a day on creation. There is always the possibility that it is true, a true scientist would never rule anything out. It just seems so improbable using the best available evidence as to not be worth serious consideration unless some major new evidence arose. Very few people will say it's impossible for God to exist in some form or another. However the likelihood of any God, let alone a specific God, seems so improbable as to be worth treating God as non-existent. I mean, if people even within one branch of one religion cannot agree on the nature of it, how likely is it that there is any real evidence for its existence?

Is faith really enough? Would you rely on faith when crossing the road, or would you use the eveidence from your eyes? Why is the matter of existence or the universe so different as for faith to be worth more than evidence?

 

I have not read through all the topic (yet), but seems this is the usual religion vs other stuff debate, but I think this might be summarized by this man:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg (seems i'm unable to figure out how to put the video in my post).

 

the buddists believe some do.. they believe in reincarnation and you can come back as an animal if you've lived a jacked up life this one I'm not really sure.. but some pets seem to do things beyond their chickenface brothers..

yeah was talking more about heaven and hell and what are the factors that decide someone worthy of heaven.. I agree even einstein was confused- there's so many good questions that can't be answered but your not stuck with hairless ape as the only option

yeah the twins is interesting.. heck you even have fertility specialists and octomom.. but cloning is not imo stopped by ethical reasons.. there was quite a length of time when they were trying like crazy to clone people out in international waters- with no success.. think they just finally gave up no ethics involved there- they just couldn't do it

yeah I've talked plenty about this.. and most people say if life was found on mars- it would have had to come from earth.. I think there could be some pretty solid tests done to make sure it's extraterrestrial- and if it is, it would show life is much more abundant

from what we know so far, we are it though.. the rest is sci-fi

no you don't rely on faith when crossing a road.. there's an old saying god helps those who help themselves.. religion doesn't claim to have all the answers but it does give you a good network of people who work together for the greater good

it's there to give you strength when times are hardest, supposed to keep you humble too but I always have issues with that part lol it's not this evil organization out to conquer the world, well at least the people I know.. like masons, they are very real people who have a network you wouldn't believe- if you can get into that, pretty much got it made just make sure you don't mention the monkey business

I see what your saying but who goes around like a zombie and make decisions based on faith every second of your life