I'm not going to respond to you until you watch both those videos fully. Point out any instances where the protesters are bumping cars (well there is one where a police officer spears a protesters head into a cars...).
The point here is that cops are not dogs (or at least shouldn't be). They should restrain from resorting to macing people simply because they're milling around aimlessly. Someone is yelling abuse at cops during a protest? F**k 'em, they're chumps. How come no one maces the Westboro Baptist remtards? I'm all for free speech but double standards? Tell you what, the next time I exit a concert or a football (ie: handegg) game, I'll call the cops - THOUSANDS of folks standing around talking up sidewalk space. Heck, I've seen more property damage post concert/football game than has been reported at OWS. Exactly. And the only way that will happen is if the cops don't operate on a hair trigger.
I never said anyone did, I was painting a hypothetical picture for you... perhaps you are suggesting that if someone was caught on video bumping a car... that would justify macing? You sure you want me to watch those videos carefully? The police asked them to disperse, they even tried to setup baracades which were torn apart by the protestors... is mace not the next step? What did you want to happen? A four hour debate? @stonedsurd: Cops get involved when sporting events get out of hand too.
Out of curiosity what would you do if you car got 'bumped' by a police officer ramming someone into it? Happy that the protester is getting what he deserves or pissed that your life has been impacted in some way?
I'd be happy that a clear message is being given to the general public, to not mess around. If there is any damage to my car, then the police department would pay for it - I'm always happy to receive new for old parts, free of charge The one person I saw being smashed into a volvo as the presenter put it, was barely a tap, the only damage was to the protester's pride.
OK hypothetically speaking... No. Unless I misunderstand the meaning of bumping (I am taking it to mean knocking against, not smashing in windows etc.), why exactly does that justify attacking someone? OK, I did put that badly. There has to be a reasonable threat of violence. Please point that out to me. People have the right to be in public property, yes, that's why it's called public property... And they also have the right to protest. I'm not entirely sure on police instructions. Obviously the police can act illegally and then you can refuse but here I'm not sure. The protesters have rights, they can be there protesting, it is public space, but when they are asked to move along I'm not sure. Barricades torn down? Are you even watching the same videos I am? Mace is not a weapon to get people to move along. Mace is designed to subdue people who are resisting arrest. The correct course of action here would be the officers holding the police line to move the protesters away. As you can see though everyone is just standing around when they are sprayed...
Granted I left NYC five days after OWS began, but from what I saw while I was there it was tamer than the student protests I've seen in LA and orders of magnitude more calm than sporting events. As someone who was there (as an onlooker, not participant) for the first five days of OWS, I cannot stress enough how calm it was. That's why getting back to LA and hearing of the macings and arrests is so shocking. If it had gotten twenty times more rowdy, it wouldn't have been nearly as bad as protests I've seen where the police nevertheless remained restrained in their actions (verbal commands and barriers to hold people back). If this was happening in Iran, I bet the State Department would be all over it - "We urge the government of Iran to address the legitimate grievances of their people as they are being peacefully voiced." Or some hollow sentence along those lines. How is it ok for protesters in Manhattan to be detained and maced but when protesters elsewhere are detained it's "a crime against democracy"?
Im not convinced there but i know no where near enough to say for certain. Im just watching the video again and the way that copper pulls that bloke down awfully close into that volvo, it could of easily had smashed the head light and his head open. The pepper spray incident also caught at least one (seems to be 3-4) other people behind the first woman, it at least shows a grossly incorrect use of it. If the woman deserved the pepper spray then why walk away? Why not arrest her? That said they do have a hard job to do and the pressure must be unreal, its not surprising things can get out of hand.
People are charging the police, running through their lines, ignoring their instructions, whilst hurling abuse. Many of the protesters are carrying objects within striking distance of multiple officers, such as the guy holding up a guitar in the air as if he's about to beat someone with it Now he really deserved to be maced and arrested! If only one officer had a few more seconds to spare, that probably would have happened, and then we'd have a reporter telling us that a guy was maced for attempting to play a song of love and peace. That would be hypocritical, I haven't noticed this specific example, but it wouldn't be the first time someone from the government made an unfair comment. Everyone would like police that offer first class service with a smile, but no one wants to pay the amount of tax required to fund that quantity and caliber of police officers.
No offense to non USA people but.... you have no idea what this is about nor can you comment on it. /thread
Thats a bit much, i didnt get that impression once watching any of the videos. so in your opinion if an innocent gets sprayed with pepper spray its ok as long as it gets an offender? (who may or might be one) How far do we take that? Is it ok to shoot an innocent as long as we get the bad guy? some people were promoting the riot, as to them it was a protest, a legal one i believe. Why cant non USA people comment? This sort of thing happens all over the world.
So the excuse for the people who swear an oath to "protect and serve" to be dicks is that they're not paid enough? Wow. As for your responses to my comments about the intensity of the protest and the police reaction; 1. I don't like seeing protests get out of hand, I was just pointing out that much worse happens at events Americans take for granted (like sporting events) and at student protests on campuses nationwide. 2. The point I was trying to make about police action at the student protests I was at was that when faced with a far more abusive and physically challenging crowd (swearing, shoving) the cops, to their credit, showed far more restraint in dealing with the protesters. Why then could they not do the same with this better behaved crowd? I mean legally a cop can blow someone's face off with a 9x19mm round if they think there's a chance that the person might be a danger but I'd like to see you condone them executing protesters because they "might be getting a bit rowdy". Just because it stands up in a court of law doesn't make it right (and now this will come back to bite me in the ass because the protests stand up in a court of law but aren't necessarily right, right? ). Regarding guitar-man, yes, that might appear threatening but the guy was probably just keeping his guitar from being damaged by the crowd that was being corralled like animals. Respectfully, I disagree. What does "non-USA" mean anyway? Why must one be American to discuss, condemn or condone police brutality?
Cant argue with that. The whole street was filled with people, not all of them protesting, some of them no doubt having to go out in it. Just sucks to be them if they walk past behind someone being maced. I just hope murderers and rapists dont hang out in crowded public places and they get arrested somewhere quiet and alone True that there was the odd idiot that took the whole shouting during a protest far to far and no doubt some of them were pretty pissed that they wasnt allowed to down that street to protest. Don't get me wrong overall by the looks of it the police handled it fairly well but just like the protesters there was the odd police idiot who thought it was his day to test out his mace and get overly violent.
No offence to idiots, but you're an idiot. It's still a subject for discussion; still a question of whether it is right or not. Just because it happens in the US doesn't mean only US should worry about it.
Agreed. I agree, and some of the police could have been a little more gentle, but it's not like the protesters were calm and peaceful. I have no sympathy for that particular screaming mob, more pepper spray would have been appropriate imo, nowhere near enough protesters got maced.
Mace people for protesting? just the people screaming? What do they have to be screaming to be maced? How you can make sure it doesn't hit innocents? or just mark it up as wrong place, wrong time? He just made a bad situation even worse it was a terrible call and needs to be sat down somewhere and talked some common sense into him.
No offense to USA people but please try to understand the language you're writing. I can comment on this and I already have done precisely that. Seriously though, you're from Pensylvania not New York, so what do you know?
I think he made an example out of some loud mouths, and I think the protest would have gotten much more out of hand if such examples were not made - just imagine how many more injuries, and how much damage could have occurred had things been left to spiral out of control. We're talking about a mob of people with attitudes like Fuganater: "How dare you make a comment about how we scream in the streets" /REMOVE MACE FROM HOLSTER AND SQUEEZE
That could of happened, the reverse could of happened to. You could also argue things were perfectly in control (as far as things can be in a protest) until the police started getting a bit to excited. These sort of things are hard to argue for and against without being there. Would be interested to see the video from the policeman that was recording, be good to see their side of events from that angle.
