Confirming this thread has spawned the GoodBytes Appreciation Society. But who doesn't want "seizure-inducing colour reproduction"?
Yes... yes. But, no I am always open for a TN panel, and certainly open minded on MVA and PVA panels. You have to remember that my views are aimed at you guys! Do my parent computer have an IPS panel? No of course not. They have TN panels. The max max max they do with the computer is occasional youtube watching, getting them a fancy IPS panel would be a complete waist of money. It's also great on laptops as it consumes less power than any other technology, based on my knowledge and observation. They are good TN panels out there for sure. But sadly, if the manufacture doesn't send their monitor for in depth reviews at review sites.. it's hard to know. I don't have the funds to start buying all the new and latest monitor and start comparing. So I can only go with what I encounter. And so far.. while they are monitors (haven't tested in gaming), that seams impressive for a TN panel... however the the price is on par as IPS panels, which not only is better (like really you can't miss it), but they are in depth review found on the web, and everything has been tested and know what to expect, while that TN panel that looked interesting does not. So for me, it is difficult to suggest a TN panel monitor. However, as you all know, I listen carefully to people feedback. If you got a TN panel, and you are willing to share your input and perform a review on it, with picture, and response time shots, and have other reviews or people supporting it, especially if it they are shots that compares with other recommended monitor, then I'll sure add it to my recommendation list. And as I mentioned again and again... for hardcore FPS players or people with fast eyes, I don't recommend them getting an IPS panel. And I think if you in that section, losing a bit of the visuals to have a comfortable and great gaming experience, is a worthy sacrifice. Also I don't jump directly on all IPS panels. They are many of them I turn down. The monitor needs to deliver, and I go beyond just the visuals. visuals is sure is important, but it's package. What the point of a nice monitor, while it keeps wobbling left and right as you breath. And don't tell me it can detect and warn you about incoming seismic activities as a feature, I don't buy it. And I don't stop there. I look how the monitor movement system works, is it too stiff? plastic mechanical system or metal?, inputs, features, does it even have a on screen menu? and how the menu navigation goes? ports location, boarder thickness, included accessories, back light uniformity, back light technology, after sale service and warranty coverage, price, availability, reputation, build quality, and so on. Also I follow a minimum standard. Things I expect from a monitor as minimum.. I don't care if the monitor is 150$ or even 100$. I am not like some reviews that give a ultra crappy monitor, insult to humanity 5 starts (or wtv) on 5, because the monitor is very cheaply price. I have minimums, as I go beyond "deal", and "low price".. I look at the users (you) perspective. Would they be happy, comfortable, and enjoy a great (the best money can provide) experience? Is what I ask myself every-time. Granted we all have our different needs, different budget and caring level. So, you don't have to follow what I say. I just explain what I THINK, would provide the best computer experience for most.
It would be nice if you kept all this in mind before you go visiting every single monitor thread on these forums. There are qualities of IPS that are superior to TN and vice versa, but I have seen you in just about every monitor thread in the past 6 months . . . and surprise surprise, you've never done anything but trash talk TN panels and recommend Dell IPS screens (regardless of budget or usage). PS - I use both technologies, properly calibrated, on a day-to-day basis. I also do professional graphic design work that goes to print and color accuracy is important to me. I find many of your claims exaggerated, at best.
Well yeah, but a lot of us are guilty of deriding TN panels, purely because most of the threads in the past 6 months have basically been asking for an IPS monitor.
IPS > TN imo . I am using an IPS and a TN monitor in Tandem and with my unskilled eyes I can tell that the IPS screen I am using is miles better.
Well first of all, you are always welcome to these conversation. If I am wrong, please show me how wrong I am, and I'll correct myself, and provide you rep (obviously) and provide an apology, and won't say what I said wrong anymore. PookeyHead corrected me on a lot of things, and he got just that. I do consider budget. When I see someone buying a mediocre reviewed at best, 350$ TN monitor, to play (based on the person information provided), mostly non-FPS games, and I explain again, about the slower speed and high input lag of what I am about to suggest.. of course I'll present a 300-350$ IPS panel which is well viewed in reviews, and sometimes has more features. I always like to present higher end models that goes a bit over the budget of the person.. BUT I also suggest monitors that fit their budget very closely. The reason? To show what is available. When you go to a retail store... are you asked: "What is your budget?" You say an amount, and then they remove on shelf every product that passes your budget, even by a couple of dollars? NO! Of course not. If a monitor costs let's say 50$ more (assuming your budget can actually be expended (something I ALWAYS say and warn, and explain how much I discourage debt)) but it fits waaaayyy better my needs (let's say I am purchasing). Of course I'll cash out the difference. What would you pick: Your budget (and is extendable, and not actually limited), is 300$. you want a computer. Well for 300$ I show you a Atom based dual core computer. What I also do, is I show a 350$ computer with a lot more power.. like a last gen Pentium series. And also present a 400$ or so one that comes with Windows 7 included, Core 2 Duo, more HDD space and more RAM, all by not reducing the GPU power. Which one you will pick? (assuming all are about the same size system and new). Then you go.. ok so 400$ is all nice and neat, but I can live less performance, especially that I don't all this power for the purpose of the system. I can stretch the budget to 350$. So I'll get the 350$ one. MANY MANY MANY people I provided advice, turn down higher end models that I presented. And I am happy, and they are happy. Now they won't go "Dam it, if only I paid 10-20$ or wtv small amount more, or the same price, I could have gotten a lot better one" They know what is out there, so that they can take a better decision. They are exception cases, where someone wants exceptional visuals, but comes with a budget too small. So a very close monitor that achieve impressive visuals is presented, all by being very low price. And for fun and personal knowledge, I tend to present the best sub-1000$ monitor, which is really spectacular. Do I expect him or her to jump on it? Of course not! Especially if that person can't afford it. And the reason why I present too many time Dell monitors (and I know it), is because you pay less for not having the brand name. Simple as that. And example of this, as I recall it as I checked. When the Dell U2410 was released, it was 750$ in Canada, and on special at 500$. The monitor uses an LG panel. The very same monitor from LG cost how much? close to 1000$, and has no advantage over the the Dell one. They are the same. In fact the Dell one had a bit more features than the LG one. Which one would you get? And I do present HP and LG monitors as well. Now, yes, I'll admit, sometimes I do get carried over, by having too much fun, where I exaggerated on things, but make them clearly obvious... like when I say that this or that monitor will give you seizures on how awesome the colors will be ... OBVIOUSLY it won't. They are really good, but won't give you a seizure). Also remember, that I am not paid for this, and I still do my best I can. typing posts takes a lot of time, and effort. And I always encourage checking reviews, and allow other people opinion.
Good guide, but feels really bias. I understand many people like IPS, but 120hz mointers are great for me. In the same way looking at an TN mointer is terrible for some (I suspect the OP feels this way) I cant get over how wrong 60hz feels now. Let me be clear. I understand some people can see no difference whatsoever between 60hz and 120hz, and therfore the obvious choice is IPS for them, but as this seems to be the official bit tech forum screen guide now, people should be provided with both sides of the argument so they no to research which is a more important factor for themselves. (I have been through so many IPS and TN panels, so this is not a kneejerk response!)
Yes, it is a section I am looking into, and will try to elaborate. My problem is that I don't want to say that only TN panels can do 120Hz, because they are IPS TV's that do 120Hz+. So it's just a mater of when it will come to desktop monitors. I guess it's due to market share. Because most gamer buys and uses TN panel, and sees as IPS panel as being literally unusable for gaming, due just until the last couple of years IPS panel were indeed very slow and input lag was way to much. So manufacture sees no point in investing money in an IPS panel with 120Hz compatibility. I have a feeling that monitor manufacture don't care about 120Hz, like even for TN panels, they only do it for 3D. I really want to experience seriously a 120Hz monitor, but I don't have the funds to buy one, nor have access to one. All the IPS panel that, right now (in the affordable market), as desktop monitors, that is coming is the LG D237IPS. It's not 120Hz, needs passive glasses.
Obviously I would not say anything if that was all that was happening. I'm specifically referring to threads where a budget was stated that clearly did not make room for an IPS panel and yet the OP couldn't get any relevant advice over the dull roar of "IPS!!!!". Yeah, IPS > TN for most things. Also it would be fair to say that Mercedes > Honda. With that said not everybody needs the Mercedes . . . more importantly not everyone can afford the Mercedes. Furthermore many people don't need all the features the Mercedes offers (ie 500hp grocery getter). The primary advantage of an IPS screen: vertical viewing angle. A quality TN panel has fairly decent ~150 degree viewing angle on the horizontal but suffers in the vertical angles. In a production environment where my clients and bosses all need to look at the monitor at the same time from different angles an IPS screen is a must-have. At home, where I sit directly in front of the screen I experience no viewing angle problems. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have the two 1080P, calibrated TN panels + double articulating arm mounts for the monitor than the half of an IPS screen I could afford on the same budget. As for your ability to see with your "unskilled eyes" the difference . . . a few questions: how old is the other non-IPS monitor? has it ever been calibrated? are they the same resolution? do you think your TN monitor really serves as a quality reference for all of the TN panels that exist? I like IPS panels as much as I like Mercedes, no doubt. If I won the lottery I would probably buy both the Mercedes and the IPS screen. My only point is that, like GoodBytes himself said, some people will be perfectly fine with a TN panel.
Update 1 I have updated the TN and IPS comparison part to be less bias, and present TN panel its placement and advantage over other panel technologies more clearer, to try to be more fair. What do you guys think?
Goodbytes - I think what you have posted is very fair. Re. trashtalking TN monitors, yes it happens and I've defended TN many times, but it's hard to defend TN monitors because many of them cost more than the cheapest IPS monitors. I used a 28" 1920x1200 TN monitor for two years and would go back to it in a heartbeat if I was a gamer, but that's not to say I wouldn't miss IPS. My personal opinion is that IPS or PVA primarily for gaming is a little OTT (I use my screens professionally, not primarily for gaming)... but everybody's budget differs. If you can afford a 30" PVA or IPS monitor for gaming, then go ahead. The biggest problem with a forum like this is that people read something which they assume has been posted by a knowledgeable and authoritative figure (which in many cases is true, eg Goodbytes or Pookeyhead)... but these people fail to discern between opinion and fact, and things can often be blown out of proportion. Most of us will prefer IPS over TN (naturally) but to regard TN as "trash" is just silly.
Vote for sticky! Very nice work GB, well done for all the effort you put into this. A rep sandwich is coming your way once I'm back on a desktop
Awesome guide Well, I'm there like a much needed guide. Some time ago I was looking for something. Thanks for taking the time to do it and share it.
Something has caught my eye: http://in.asus.com/Display/LCD_Monitors/PA238Q/ There isn't any full detail review that I came across to judge, yet (still looking).. but it seams that their is problem with back light bleeding. But Hey for the price, AND you have HDMI and Display Port, with DVI and VGA, and comes with a pre-calibrated color profile sRGB (no Adobe RGB probably due to the white LED back light), and has features like picture-in-picture. Considering the price, it looks interesting (if the backlight problem isn't too bad). I await for performance test and the rest before starting to recommend it, of course, but it's worth a look for those interested. Then again, I must present a warning: The few people (2, I think) had abysmal experience with ASUS monitor after sale service (just an answering machine that no one checks). This was some time ago, so I don't know if things has changed. I don't know if this is a 6-bit or a 8-bit panel. It does support 10-bit colors via Frame rate control.
People should not compare technology to cars. It's a totally different world tech vs cars. You can buy 1980's Benz and in 2011 still sell for decent price. I always hated when people go like "Oh I bought Apple notebook it's like buying a Mercedes. And he bought MSI (G) gaming series notebook and that's garbage!" ... Yeah well trying buying PC made in 2000 (Pentium2 lets say) and sell it in 2011. I guarantee you that you won't make jack bud. Therefore tech world is not a dealership.
You seem to be under the illusion that IPS panels are incredibly expensive. They aren't. As you know you can get a 23" LG IPS panel for £145, and the cheapest TN panel I can see on ebuyer is £107. given the difference between those two is £40, why would you not recommend it to everyone bar those on a extreme budget? Also, those that frequent these forums in search of monitor advice are usually a cut above the normal user, and so its not surprising they are in the market for an IPS panel, and Goodbytes is the authority on these. Yes, TN panels are suitable for your mum and dad, but I haven't seen them swing by here lately. By all means, chime in when someone asks, but do not criticise Goodbytes for pouring out huge amounts of solid, helpful advice.
This. This is an enthusiast's forum - We're no strangers to spending ridiculous amounts of money on PCs simply to get the very best out of them. So it's only natural that you'll get advice tailored to PC enthusiasts - and IPS is currently the best choice for this group.
Three things. 1. I'm not your bud. 2. I didn't even mention resale value . . . so way to go off on a tangent. 3. I never said computers = cars. There are comparable situations in both markets however. I could probably make a comparison between buying toothpaste and buying computers too . . . but that doesn't mean I'm saying Intel is better at cleaning your teeth than AMD. Like I said, I'm a graphic designer who often does magazine work that is outputted to 4 color presses. I achieve excellent color accuracy with my 2 year old calibrated TN panel. Those 145 pound / $215 LG monitors are not really IPS panels. You're looking at $279 for a small IPS panel. (AKA 2x the price of my monitor) I agree, if we're talking to someone with the budget for an IPS panel we should make that person completely aware of their existence and qualities/attributes. I even said earlier that they are, in general, a superior technology. My only point was that when we are not talking to such an enthusiast, or perhaps to someone on a budget without room for an IPS panel - we don't need to belittle TN panels or exaggerate how wildly inaccurate their color reproduction is.
