WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

And I could argue you quite cogently, I believe, that my faith is based on evidence and proof. But I don't see anyone clamoring to take that bet. I am talking to a group of people that have their minds made up. It's like butting your head against a wall.

 

I have never heard what your beliefs are so I couldn't comment on them.

 

Now you know that's not true. I closed the thread because you had repeatedly communicated in all your other threads, despite urging, encouraging, complaining and cajoling by various members, that you were unwilling to actually discuss your point of view.

The ban was for flaming, remember?

The offer is still open. If you can create a thread on the Libya grave desecration topic that is not just a one-sided rant, and you are willing to discuss it rationally, I'm happy to run with it. Can't say fairer than that.

Spec is free to offer his opinion like anyone else --as long as he can politely and rationally debate it. He has always explained how his opinion about religion is based in a reasoned argument (whether you or I agree with that or not). That's all that is required.

You bring the most informed and credible arguments to the table in favour of Christianity, so we always value your views, even if we do not always agree. It is very different from MARYA, who just quotes from the Qu'ran but refuses to engage in a debate, or Dwarfer, who appears to just quote from the Daily Mail and again refuses to enter into any rational debate.

 

Frankly, no-one cares if you're religious or not. If you want to argue a point then people will listen to you if they find what you have to say to be interesting and rational. The problem is when people found their arguments on religious principles; most people don't consider this to be a valid starting point of an argument.

On the Dwarfer issue, the fact that he has not been banned outright from SD shows how much Nexxo values the freedom of expression of the forum. Even if you ignore the fact that Dwarfer has directly gone against mod's orders countless times, even if you ignore that fact that a large number of people have expressed that they wish he was perma-banned, Nexxo would still, in my eyes, have more than ample justification to issue such a ban. This is Serious Discussion, the name itself gives you a pretty clear indication of what's expected. Or perhaps we should create a sub-forum called Personal Greivances for people to shout dogma at each other and engage in general flaming?

 

Well, I'm a Christian, raised Southern Baptist but less denominational in personal belief. Yet as a Christian I still accept evolution (God didn't tell us how He did it, did he? That's Hebrew allegorical poetry for you. It's a just so story, written to say that we aren't really sure how God did it, but we're here now.) I see no reason to discriminate specially against homosexuals (we're told it's sin, and we're also told that sin is sin, and there's no one worse than another-that the people that get up in arms about it have a personal hangup, not to mention that if they read their Bibles correctly that they're equally as sinful, and not on some special other level) or women, though I do accept that men and women are different, and recognize that while men may do some things better through functionality of increased muscle mass or what have you, women have areas where they far outstrip men, and only through cooperation would we get the benefits of both. I can't see a reason I should ever turn away anyone who needs help that I can render. I know that a core truth of the bible is that it is about YOUR walk with Christ, and not about beating other people with-it's between you and God, and if you want to tell other people about it live a life that makes them ask why you have hope when the world falls in on you. I may know science, but I believe in my heart that there is more out there than the instruments tell us. Nobody has offered a good explanation as to how I died for three and a half minutes and came back-or dozens of other things that happen every day that simply have no explanation. I don't see a good reason the laws of physics had to fall exactly as they did, that we had to be in the inhabitable zone, or more importantly why we're programmed as humans to believe.

I've traced the history of first the Jews and then the early Christians, using secular sources-and found that there's not a place or major historical event the Bible got wrong-in fact, when they seemed to conflict, later discoveries always favored the Bible. There's an entire subset of archaeology known as Biblical archaeology that's still enjoying successes in the field, and a recent announcement that ties resurrection beliefs to within the lifetime of the disciples-so not nearly enough time for legend to creep in. It's a case of Occam's razor-when you eliminate all other possibilities, whatever is left, however absurd, that's the answer. And even Jesus' enemies had the same to say about him the Bible did.

I see a fundamental problem with the concept that there is no meaning to life-then what's the point of living it? If I'm wrong, my beliefs have led me to attempt to make the world a better place for those around me. I truly try in that regard, though I'm only human, and I do fail (often.) But if you're (you collective, not you specific) and there is something more, then you wasted your life (so to speak.) I'm not trying to preach love out one side of my mouth and act hateful with the other side. That's false religion. I'm genuinely trying to help others-in my case, my death will help more people than my life could hope to reach, since I'm dying of Marfan's syndrome. That's yet another point-whether I'm right or not, it gives me peace about being sick. People get mad and say that a loving God couldn't do that to people, but in a way I'm fine with this. I choose to see it as I was given a burden because I could bear it-I have the ability to put into words my struggle, and to help others by the scientific knowledge gained by my suffering and ultimate death-and I have accepted my fate. How many others can say the same?

But since it's out here, I don't have an issue with people learning-I do it all the time myself. I don't have a :knowledge is dangerous" attitude, and I'm disgusted by those that do. Someone tell me where my beliefs are harmful, or how I'm suddenly a bad person for them. Because I'm really having a hard time trying to figure it out.

Edit: I missed two replies. But since I was asked, wall of text. My beliefs have grown up as I've grown older-because I have them challenged so often. I think it's very useful-I have no issue with debate, I would have one with my voice not being heard. I think I've seen enough to reassure me that isn't the case.

 

=] I agree with most of what you say kayin.. I try to tell these fools, but noone will listen, so who really cares lol

just giving back in general, and the most important thing is just being yourself.. I have to disagree with the gay part- cause if I was banging some butts hanging upside down from a swingbar, probably end up like those guys in that irish video dancing around pulling random willys

 

Cosmic jewish zombies are not real, neither are elephant tentacle creatures or men with animal heads; everywhere you look the notion of a supreme being, or 'god', is something created by mankind to explain what primitive humans couldn't ( at the time due to lack of scientific understanding ).

You can claim historical events tie in with the bible as much as you want, that alone does not prove the existence of a god or his made-human son, for which there is only the word of a few men writing poems as a form of moral guidance.

Lets not touch on all the horrors committed 'in the name of God' though, and lets not touch on the hypocrisy of the church either, nor all the different interpretations of 'gods word' which should be so clear & unequivocal if they are truly the words of our invisible & highly judgemental master...

 

well since you put it like that neal xD I now believe in a super buttsecks monkey! first life just happened

then this monkey, let's call him george and his monkey wife krissy (ah what the heck, let's name her eve) were squatting up and down in a field.. of course george got attacked from behind by a sweet in the pants monkey (that monkey just couldn't help himself- it's genetic)

george roid raged, that changed him into a buttsecking crazy dope addicted monkey! poof 100,000 years later here we are.. I mean that's basically what atheists believe in a nutshell put into your terms of course

if you've seen god work in your own life and people you know.. it's hard to deny that heaven is real and there is something bigger.. god gave us free will to believe in anything we want.. you can seek the truth or sit around with plugs in your ears your whole life and never see it.. trust me, religion aside, if you go looking you'll find it

 

I totally agree, I spent my teenage years reading about religion, the church and the horrors so I guess I don't really care enough any more to make big posts in SD about God!

I hate the atheist tag as it seems to have attracted a superior air that I don't like, at best we can say that we are agnostic. There is no proof for or against a God so I won't totally discount the possibility that he does exist but I see no evidence to show me that there was / is one!

Watching Hitchens, Harris and Fry demolish the Catholic Church was amazing and provided me with more logical points that organised religion is dangerous and harmful to millions.

Please tell me that you are a troll? No one can be as painfully wrong, ignorant or stupid to post that seriously.

 

You'd think so but i'm not entirely sure in thehippoz's case.

 

Being a moderator on a forum is a little like having to live in a house with your work colleagues. Sometimes you need to be professional, sometimes you need to be personal. Sometimes I have to be a mod and ban people, other times I just want to discuss things. I try to keep these times fairly separate.

You're a decent man Kayin, and I know this. Don't think my dislike of religion means you are not welcome here, that is simply not the case. I've always enjoyed having you on the forum, and will continue to.

We all have belief systems. I tend to disagree with some of your fundamentals, but so what? Debating with Nexxo all the time would be boring because we agree so frequently. It's great to have diverse opinions in this forum, and I would hope that all members recognise that moderators necessarily have personal beliefs, but that users do not need to share these beliefs to be valuable and welcome members of the forums.

I'm not going to debate your following post right here, so as to try to keep the thread OT, but you're more than welcome to message me if you want to discuss anything. I'll just address one final point:

It's simple. You're not.

 

No one has ever seen god at work; you have seen PEOPLE at work- whether they are deluded or misguided enough to think they are working for a high-purpose or being is irrelevant.

Something bigger is the universe, and science which is unlocking it's secrets; science doesn't demand your obedience, nor does it judge you or condemn you for no good reason.

How can you say we are given free will by god, then he expects us to worship him otherwise we go to hell ( supposedly )- what would be the point of free will if it allows us to not believe in god & suffer the consequences as a result of his lovely gift? That's called talking nonsense I'm afraid.

 

I agree that ignorance and, worse, lying are not acceptable excuses.

As for religious views? As long as you're saying what you believe, and not going "believe this, or you're wrong", I don't mind what you're saying. I may or may not agree with your opinions (and vice versa), and that's all right.
That is part of the reason I'm not very politically correct. (IMO, being PC == several people changing their views to conform to one individual's.)


Kayin, I liked what you said. You expressed what you believed. Very informative. You didn't try to say "this is the right way to go, get with the program", you said, "This is my opinion. I'm just saying it, not shoving it down your throat". Kudos to you.

 

Point taken, Spec. I'm not going anywhere. That's the problem with having opposite reactions to medication at 4 AM.

I actually have rebuttals, but I also have a lap full of baby that just got vaccinations. I can address issues later, but I'm not leaving. I understand a little better now.

 

I think that people tend to get confused between the human existential and spiritual experience, the belief systems we build to make sense of the world and preserve our ego integrity and how we behave as social(ly organised) beings.

Pointing at the hypocrisy of religious institutions, or the contradictory, misguided or even outright evil things that people do is a weak argument against spirituality or faith. People are messed-up. They feel one thing, think another, say another and do yet another. Does football hooliganism make football evil? Does rape make sex evil? Does eugenics or the A-bomb make science evil? Let's not overgeneralise, please.

Yeah, at first glance the story of Jesus is a faery tale about a hippy performing impossible miracles, getting nailed to a cross and coming back from the dead. At first glance Little Red Riding Hood is about a smart little girl visiting her grandma and outwitting a wolf. At first glance Zen Buddhism is a bunch of guys in robes saying crazy stuff (so is ancient Greek philosophy). At first glance maths is just numbers. Science is guys in white coats and nerdy glasses saying crazy things (much like the guys in robes). At first glance football is 22 men kicking a ball around a field. At first glance art is just pictures and statues. Music is just sounds. A steam train is a hot water tank on wheels.

We all mock what we don't understand (eh, thehippoz?), because what we don't understand scares us (eh, Dwarfer?). But without the above things: art, stories, music, games, science, engineering, philosophy, spirituality, faith, our life would be an empty, meaningless scrabbling in the dirt for survival until the inevitable bleak end. What makes us human is our ability to transcend the concrete physical world. Faith is a part of that. My worst nightmare is a humanity that does not believe in anything at all.

 

hey what's that supposed to mean? you trying to say something

nice post though- it's basically what I've been saying for well years.. can almost rep it but you left out the monkey.. that's ok though

I don't even know why I post really.. I like reading the sd though to go back on topic.. usually some good opinions- until it goes



ooooooo

 

^^^ That's what I mean.

 

If it wasn't for centuries of religious dogma telling you it was wrong you might be more comfortable with your apparent repressed homosexuality. This is not meant as an insult, just an observation based on your posts.

 

Owch.

 

Touché!