Elementary school shooting

Definately, but there has been incidents without firearms aswell. They just were'nt that poular in the western media, as these incidents happened in China and South Korea.

Exactly my point, when I speak about society and "noone left behind", as the institutions can't provide that.

 

The middle class has been destroyed for the past several decades and can no longer fund the poor, in your country they can no longer fund the poor either, let alone "free healthcare". There is no money. There are too many freeloaders. All of this creates social problems. If you wish to have a functional society you must build the middle class. Not destroy it. The middle class is what holds society up. Not the poor. Not the super rich. But the middle class. And the middle ground (read: middle class) is getting smaller. There is also a lack of sound morals and social structure - read: family. Family is no longer viewed as important by our leaders, but family is the most important thing there is.

The issue here is NOT guns but an overall decay in western civilization.

That falls upon the smallest nucleus of a tribe, that is to say family.

 

Posts from General moved.

 

Not so much freeloaders (technically), as people having a sense of overentitlement. They genuinely believe that they have an entitlement to these things rather than having to earn it (whereas freeloaders know they haven't earned it, but take anyway). This is arguably much more destructive than freeloading.

 

You make a good point regarding the sense of overentitlement many in society have today, it sure is destructive, there's no question about that I don't think.

 

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that most of society's problems can be attributed to the poor? I find that quite shocking to be honest, if so. There are just as many middle and upper class families who abuse the system to gain financial rewards, and they are certainly not whiter than white by any measure.

The middle classes were those who were largely responsible for the economic crash we are still living through now. With the middle classes came the credit rich, cash poor, buy now pay later attitudes. There were many middle class families living beyond their means, and as a result all segments of society are now suffering, including the poor! I also think that the middle classes are just as corrupt and also display a distinct lack of moral values just as much as every other segment of our society.

I agree with the fact that the family unit does not seem to exist as we once knew it anymore, and that this can have a detrimental effect on our society today. I also agree that moral values seem to be much less important to today's society. As I said though, this is evident across all classes, with the symptoms being more evident in the poor class because it's the class that receives the most attention from the press and our politicians. It's always been a trait of ours to kick the underdog when times are hard, and not to take any responsibility for our own shortcomings. Be it the poor, the middle or the upper class, we all have a part to play in our social decay, and to claim otherwise is quite silly as far as I'm concerned.

 

As a sidenote, it's worth considering the fact that the shooter in this case came from a distinctly middle class family. One where, by your assumptions, social values and morals should have been present and in effect. The same as the Virginia Tech shooter, the Columbine High shooters and also the Aurora theatre shooter, to name just a few. I'm not suggesting that being middle class means that you are more likely to go on a shooting rampage, but it does suggest that class does not have a part to play in the discussion of such events.

 

I blame parents and education and governments for not fixing the first two. They spend so much time teaching kids about respiration and photosynthesis and yet a lot of people can't even handle their own basic emotions.

 

The question is, are the people who took the loan responsible for the problems, or rather the people who gave these loans to people, they knew they could'nt back them up.

Most people don't think about economics and all that, so they simply took the money and the CCs they were offered by the banks, not actually knowing where this is going.

And that's exactly the problem of our modern societies... people don't think about every possibility anymore, as the system trains them this way. The system needs workers and consumers, but not highly educated people, who question everything.
The modern systems needs idiots so to speak, who buy everything that's advertised for.

Envy and greed are the dominant factors of the modern capitalistic societies, which are based on economic growth, not charity. People don't feel like a part of society anymore, they feel like competitors.

And this modern society of "idiots", where everyone competes with everyone else leads to more crimes and people running amok aswell, as the same system makes people overly egoistic and socially cold.

 

I agree that the banks should have been loaning much more responsibly, however I don't think ignorance is an excuse. The middle class families that took loans out without considering the future viability are every bit as culpable as those who signed them off.

I don't think it's a case of whether we are highly educated or not. Many highly educated, middle class families found themselves in real financial difficulties too. I think it's purely a case of having the willpower to ensure that one is not living beyond ones means as much as possible. It's all about keeping up with the Jones'es, and the highly educated can fall to this game too. Look at many university educated people who have the flash cars, big houses and expensive clothes, but very little cash in the bank. These are often the people who fund their lifestyles on credit. When the poor seek credit, it's often for survival purposes, as opposed to lifestyle choices. Putting the next meal on the table can often be a choice between paying the bills on time, or buying in food, especially when we consider that wages for the poorest segment of our society are not keeping up with the rising costs.

I agree. I would add that the more people have, the more they want, to the point where they over extend their finances, which causes economic instability as demonstrated in the current downturn.

 

I never suggested that most of the problems were attributed to the poor, rather that it was attributed to the destruction of the middle class. And the middle ground (read: middle class) is getting smaller.

The outsourcing of much of our manufacturing to communist countries, and by the way, in which more or less slave labor is used, then selling those products back to us, charging an arm and a leg, hasn't exactly helped any.

You need a production based economy, as I said, you need to build the middle class. Not destroy it.

Added:

I thought it was clear when pointing out that if you wish to build and maintain a functional society you need to build and maintain the middle class. Not destroy it. The poor do not contribute, nor to the super rich. The super rich are too few in numbers, and the poor are too many in numbers (and increasing as we speak, remember? middle class getting destroyed), as well as with little to no income to put in the pool.

As for banks they are more or less criminals. You seek out financial guidance and counseling trusting you will get just that. Of course there are many times ignorance involved, which would be one of the reasons for why you would seek out a bank. Then we have those who will take out a loan just so they can get a new phone, both ignorant and irresponsible.

There's no need to turn this discussion into a class war, IMO.

Please note (I omitted this in my previous post, my bad) that I am bunching the working class and middle class together.

 

Again, I would disagree with this statement. As I said previously, the middle classes have just as much a part to play in our social decline as every other segment of society. Social decline really is classless as far as I'm concerned. There is no fluffy middle of the road, and there never has been, we just like to think there is to feel like we are less to blame than those who have less or more than ourselves.

I strongly disagree. Those who are in low paid jobs and are poor do indeed contribute. They still pay taxes and national insurance, and do jobs that many middle class people would often turn their noses up at. These are jobs which are every bit as essential to the well-being of our society and also our economies. It is the norm for the poor to suffer the consequences of the actions of those in higher social standing long before those other classes do, and it is also the norm for those in lower social standing to suffer much more acutely too. The super rich do contribute, regardless of whether if it is not proportionally fair or not.

I don't buy into this at all. If you are stupid enough to take a loan out before considering whether you can maintain the payments, and giving consideration to the fact that the economic climate frequently changes, then the buck stops with you, period. Yes the banks should have loaned more responsibly, but the ultimate choice on whether to sign on the dotted line or not lies with the consumer.

I think you done that yourself, when you tried to claim that the middle classes were vastly superior, and that the decline of the middle classes was the root of all evil in our society. I've stated my disagreement with your sentiments, nothing more.

 

Destroy the middle class and your production based economy and you eventually destroy your society. The middle class (and working class, remember I bunch them together) both maintain and hold society up. Let's agree to disagree.

I never claimed that the middle class (and working class, remember I bunch them together) would be vastly superior.

I have not put blame on any class either, as you may know: political decisions are often outside our sphere of influence.

 

It was only in a later post that you stated that you define middle class as being made up of the working and middle classes together. I still stand by my statements even if this is the case. Regardless of class, or any other form of social standing, we ALL have a part to play in the decline of our society.

You did state that the poor and the upper class did not contribute to society. Twice. You also stated that the middle classes are the backbone of our society too.

I think it may be of benefit for this discussion if you could define the terms you are using, specifically "the poor" and also "freeloaders". These are terms that seem to have been attributed to those in lower social standing in recent times, with reckless disregard for the consequences of doing so. One of these consequences is that the poor can easily become disassociated and disgruntled with society. Tell someone they are bad often enough, even if they are not, and they will start to live out that label eventually.

 

And I will maintain, that if you destroy the middle class and your production based economy you eventually destroy your society. The middle class (and working class, remember I bunch them together) both maintain and hold society up.

They are answering for the production and the base needs of society, and the base is getting smaller, more are getting poorer, and with little production and export there is not enough money flowing back into the system, people are being laid off.

The result is that less people are left to pay for the costs of the mutual house they all live in, so to speak. And as mentioned, the middle ground (or rather base) is getting smaller by the day.

I'm not posting with the intention of dividing the house, ok.

 

Sting where are you based? I just wondered as sounds like you're a UK man. So middle class and working class don't have the same definitions as they do in th US.

Walle, in the UK working class would have traditionally been the manufacturing sector, in the main that is, ignoring high end manufacturing such as yachts etc., not the middle class.

And walle you can Bitch and moan about manufacturing transferring to the far east but the plain fact is we in the west expect too high a return for work to make it viable to manufacture over here. People's life standard expectations are and have been for many years too great to be supported. Its that simple. People might have aspired to but didn't expect to get holidays each year, new cars, nice big houses, designer trainers, more gadgets than anyone can use. They often lived quite frugal lives and saved if they needed something, never mind wanted them.

Oh and cut the communist crap. The cold war is over. China has an over-supply of workers, with no union representation, so can pay what they want. Add to that their cost of living is very low compared to ours. Your choice in that process is not to buy their products.

 

What Carrie said. US minimum hourly salary is $7.25. In an average 21 day month and 8 hour shift it means 168 hours and $1218 per month, which equals to 919 euros, which is lower than most of Western European countries right now, but that is only because of the "collapse" of the US dollar few years ago. Before that, US minimal salary was around the Western European €1000-1500 (except Spain and Portugal).

Minimal salary usually means manual labor with no schools required etc - guess what, you get 350-400€ here in Central Europe and around 100-200€ in Eastern Europe and Asia. So if it is possible to move the work away from a country where the price of work is 9-10 times higher, then why shouldn't you ? Even with shipping of the final product included, the price difference is way too much.

Sometimes you need a compromise, like car manufacturing here in Slovakia - it is better to pay 500-700€ for a skilled guy here in Slovakia inside the EU, than to move the same job to Ukraine for half of the salary, but with additional burden of import duties etc.

For example my above the average salary here in Slovakia would be close to minimal salary in many of Western European countries.

 

We will see what happens once our businesses, factories, jobs and wealth has been bled dry, no new wealth is currently being created. That being said, a production based economy also allows you to save and invest, and there is nothing that says we couldn't produce goods that people could afford.

As for bitching and moaning that is not something I recognize, but I am concerned about the current direction we're heading. It doesn't look good.

 

See another thread were we've had this discussion. You can consume and create services in exactly the same way as goods.

 

There is no sustainability in that, no wealth is being created, and we are now feeling the effects. Let the "commies" and the Asians create services and let us westerners do the production. We have the technology, the know-how, the infrastructure, as well as the traditions. It would be insane to throw it all away, lots of money has been spent to reach this level. Anyone can create a service, and quickly. Building up a countries industry and educate the work force takes a long time, it's a huge undertaking.

Edit:
I will see if I can find the thread you mentioned, could be an interesting read.