E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

To all those bemoaning the Human Rights Act/ECHR...

... you do know the ECHR has bugger all to do with the EU, right?

 

I feel it is more to do with the fact UK courts say the law means this and so this should apply/not apply, and then the EU court comes in says we are wrong and we have to do it this way, with no way to say other wise.

 

Repeat after bart -

Care to share an example where the EU/ECJ has done this?... not the ECtHR, the EU...

 

"A new mechanism was introduced by Protocol 14 to assist enforcement of judgements by the Committee of Ministers. The Committee can ask the Court for an interpretation of a judgement and can even bring a member state before the Court for non-compliance of a previous judgement against that state. Protocol 14 also allows for European Union accession to the Convention. The protocol has been ratified by every Council of Europe member state." which basicly allows to EU to call on the ECHR to for member states to tow the line.

I don't see a great difference when it is in both of there interests to agree. It is another none accountable court.

"The UK government is, however, committed to repealing the Human Rights Act which requires UK courts to treat the ECHR as setting legal precedents for the UK, in favour of a British Bill of Rights. As part of that, David Cameron is expected to announce measures that will boost the powers of courts in England and Wales to over-rule judgements handed down by the EHCR."

so kind of a mute point.

 

Not wanting to tread on RedFlames toes but i think the point he's making is that the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) is not a court specifically dealing with EU matters, that's unless Russian has suddenly become a part of Europe without anyone realising.

 

Courts aren't meant to be accountable. That's why we have appointed judges, and not elected ones. If they were accountable to the people then they'd be run by Simon Cowell and TOWIE stars.

 

If you're unsure, rather than go with the 'masses', read this article from the economist. Very succinct.

http://www.economist.com/news/leade...ould-also-deal-terrible-blow-west-real-danger

 

Gotta say that article keeps bringing me to a few concerns I have questions about
1) 5th Largest Economy and one of the biggest military spends too - surely leaving then weakens Europe not ourselves. We're no longer focusing on defending them but ourselves. We can negioate (Look at Cameron go achieving the unachievable with his handbag at dawn) and continue to build our economy without having to prop up a French farmer or a factory in Romania.
2) if Europe is on the Ropes as the article puts it and our leaving could cause collapse then why on earth is staying on a sinking ship the logical way forward? I want to be on a liferaft when that ship sinks not in the engine room throwing more coal on the fire.
3) the whole notion of "large punishments" to discourage others from leaving again reminds me of the captain holding everyone hostage. "How dare we leave his ship"
4) the article also assumes Europe is the only place we could trade with. What about the US, Russia, India, China, Brazil, Iran. TBH I don't care about being the moral compass of the world. If we leave let the US and Europe do that. I'd happily trade with Russia for oil and Gas if Europe imposed sanctions...and yes it is sanctions they are already threatening to impose.

TBH the more I hear everyday from the stay in camp the more I want to leave. As cometely irrational as it is, Cameron is doing more harm than good and over the last few months has resorted to name calling on every single issue that someone doesn't agree with him on. Donald Trump is more eloquent than him and I disagree with everything he says.

 

You'll have to forgive me for breaking up your post so much it's just you seem to have mixed genuine question about the EU with political posturing and personal opinions.

If we leave we're not going suddenly find that we can't trade with other nations, it will take time for the effects to be felt, things like having to pay tariffs may well push up the price of goods over time, whether that will be outbalance by not having to pay contributions to the EU who knows.

AFAIK military spending is related to NATAO and not the EU, although at a guess we probably sell more military stuff to other EU nations than we buy from them, but the amount of military spending (afaik) isn't related to either being in or out.

This is the part where you veer off into political posturing and personal opinion (IMHO), so speaking in kind, personally, i would say what Mr Cameron has come back with is all but meaningless, that's not to say he didn't try or that he done a bad job, i just think it's more a reflection on the EU than Mr Cameron.

Not sure how you're defining continuing to build our economy as lot of people would disagree seeing as we went from 4th to 6th to 5th largest economy under Mr Cameron's stewardship.

Because staying on the sinking ship could be the difference between having enough people bailing out the water to prevent the ship from sinking, versus not have enough and you getting off the ship causing it to capsize.

Yea well if i was the captain of the ship and people gave up on bailing out water i would be fairly adamant that people not abandon ship and leave the rest of us to drown.

One word tariffs.

Also got any source for the claim that other EU nations are talking about sanctions on us if we leave, or have i got the wrong end of the stick.

What surprises me the most is when the IN camp says leaving would be catastrophic for the UK, if that's so then WTH was a EU referendum a part of Mr Cameron's manifesto, if leaving would be so bad wouldn't it have just been better not to take the risk.

 

From the little I understand on the topic (And we're talking a very small amount here); The UK and the EU rely on each-other rather a lot, but anyone trying to uphold our government as the bastion of moral society needs some eyesight checking, what with bills such as the Investigatory Powers Bill being shoved through.

Equally; I feel that the open borders are having an effect on this country, both good and bad, those coming into this country to work I welcome, I work alongside a fairly varied ethnic group at my current job, ranging from all across the EU, but they're all unified in the fact they came here to work, while I know of others who enter into the country with the intention not to work. Mass immigration, in the kind we're seeing currently across the EU, is causing self-segregation as those immigrating are, broadly, bringing the very same culture with them that they're trying to escape in the first place.

I'm somewhat on the fence with regards to it, ultimately; I feel that it might benefit the UK in the short term as it would give us the ability to self-determine over what we currently have in the EU, but it would also remove several safety nets, some of which we have used in the past.

Problem is that now is not a good time to be thinking in the short term, with all the troubles currently hopping up around the world, ranging from America potentially getting a man who seems to be outright off his rocker in the white house, all the way over to North Korea allegedly considering throwing around WMDs; Now is not the best time to be holding this.

Ultimately; I'd vote Stay. Because I honestly feel that with everything else going on in the world this is not the best time to leave, despite it being the best time to pose the question, since all the unrest will ensure it gets heavy coverage, and it feels like Cameron et 'al is banking on the rising dissatisfaction with the EU to force his point across, I just wonder if they've truly considered the ramifications down the road, or if they literally don't care about anything that may happen once their time in office is complete.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-defence-points-based-immigration-system.html


I agree - we should totally have a points system based on wanted skill set similar to Australia / new zealand

 

True, 2047 will be a much better time to vote leave......

 

I have no idea, but even if it were delayed a mere two years; at least some of the chaos going on around the world would've, hopefully, been sorted out a little more by that point. Now is just not a good time to be rocking a boat which is already rolling around on rough seas.

 

In another 2 years, the Pro-EU faction could have sold us down the river even more than they already have. I would prefer that British citizens are governed by a party/government voted for by us, and not some nameless quango/eurocrat running things in Brussels. I will be voting OUT because, as far as I can see, it's the only way of gaining control of our country.

 

1. Depends on whether you want the enemy stopped at Europe's borders, or at the UK's. When Europe falls, the UK falls.
2. When the European economy collapses, the UK economy collapses. All being part of a global economy.
3. Because there are repercussions for everybody if one member leaves, there will be penalties. Not punishment, just consequences.
4. Trading with immoral nations tends to get you screwed over by them --it's what immoral nations do. And you do not want to live in a world where immoral nations prosper. You really don't. Civilisation has made you soft and complacent, but it's like Tinkerbell: the fairy only lives while people believe in her. Take a long hard look at South America, China and the Middle East and ask yourself if you want that over here. That in itself is reason enough to support the EU. Meanwhile even the US considers the EU a greater priority in trade agreements than the UK, and being more dependent on countries like the US, Russia, China etc. puts the UK in a weaker bargaining position economically.

 

Personally? I am scared about the future. Really, genuinely worried. Unless some real drastic changes happen in the next decade, in 2047 I suspect the global economy will collapse and we're back to feudal times with Pharaoic levels of inequality. Europe is the last bastion of civilization --and perhaps the US and Canada. I think we should stick together. Hard.

We are part of a global economy. We lost 'control over our own countries' (if we ordinary citizens ever had it) long ago. We are part of a global network of interdependencies, not a British Empire ruling the world.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35712463

and now Hollande is threatening the voters of the UK


time to leave and shut the door - want to come here illegally? you`ll be back in france on the next boat.

 

Right because only the most moral of nations invade other nations based on non existent WMDs, implement one of the largest planetry mass surveillance operations which it uses on its own citizens and puts a firewall on their access to the internet. Let's not delve into Britain's imperialistic history. Britain is many things, but moral she ain't.

 

I recall that the UN and most of the EU were vociferously opposed to the invasion of Iraq. But the UK decided to go with the US on this one...

On a sliding scale contemporary Britain, the EU and the US are a bit less immoral than many countries. We still have some rights. In many other countries people have none.

 

Except that is never going to happen. We'll end up with shanty towns of refugees on the UK's shores, not in France. Yet if the UK tries to ship them back to France/EU they won't be permitted entry there either. France is well within its right to withdraw from the bilateral treaty allowing the UK to check people's immigration status before arriving on our shores. Withdrawing from the EU is going to piss France off, so they'll likely cancel the treaty...because why should they keep it, when the UK is being a selfish dick?



I can't believe how short sighted people are being on this. I swear it's bringing out the inner racist in vast swathes of the UK population, who can only think of "immigrants" as people who steal jobs and get up to no good. The immigration crisis in Europe isn't from people who just fancy a new job or some benefits, it's swathes of people who are running from oppressive regimes and harm to themselves. Circumstances that, ultimately, lie at the feet of countries like the UK. ISIS is a creation of Western policies (aka: wars) in the Middle East, and we have to accept that.

Sometimes I feel that decisions such as this shouldn't go to referendum, because my confidence in the intelligence of the populace as a whole is lacking. I mean, people vote UKIP for chrissakes.