E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Or

 

This is depressing. I can't even get legally high anymore with this bloody government.

Pig ****ing should be alright though. All the cool PMs are doing it. But you better not watch a facesitting video, you filthy pervert!

 

Seriously? I mean seriously?

No, you're probably right, I've been grossly biased and one-eyed throughout all of this - I haven't at all bent over backwards to try and be as even-handed as humanly possible! I mean, come on!



You see, this is why I'm about to pull out of this discussion now - as while before this post I tried my best to reply to all the points everyone else had raised, and do my best to reply to them evenly and fairly to the best of my ability, half of what I wrote has been ignored completely and the other half is either misunderstood or misrepresented.

It's very difficult to continue a conversation like that, when I do literally feel that half the time I'm talking to a brick wall and the other half I'm head-butting it.

As someone who voted to leave I understand why so many people wanted to stay in, I see those arguments, what I'm having trouble understanding is why some of you who voted to remain won't even countenance the possibility that there were some good reasons for leaving as well.

The only explanation you're willing to accept is that everyone was somehow 'tricked' into it. They're simple folk, they can't think straight, probably not their fault as they're no doubt uneducated too. And that, OK, (after pushing) maybe there were a few on the remain side who were not quite up to scratch on it all, but that argument somehow still applies more to the leave side.

Neither of you can get that concept out of your heads. It's as if some people being 'temped' into leaving makes them somehow simple, yet some people being 'frightened' into remaining makes them more intelligent. Forgive me if I don't quite go for that.

Do I strike you as uneducated or unthinking? Maybe I do, that's up to you I guess. The thing is, in trying my best to be even-handed, I've actually barely even touched on the reasons why I did want to leave. And no asked. Maybe because I couldn't possibly have good reasons, because, evidently, there are none.

All this constant talk of people being hoodwinked, and me somehow missing the point (because it's all some sort of conspiracy or trick) is also a misnomer. People were given a choice. That's called democracy. There's nothing wrong with democracy, even if it doesn't always give you the outcome you want. I've been on the losing end of General Elections at least as many times as the winning end, so it's not as if I don't know what it feels like.

I still agree with the system, even when I don't like the outcome.

It was a very, very poor campaign, as I have repeatedly acknowledged, but ultimately people are entitled to decide their own future. I for one don't want to live in a world where only our political elite ever get to decide our future - especially if it's a far removed political elite who live in an entirely different country to me and don't show even the most vague interests in what's best for me, my neighbours or my family and, more importantly, have absolutely no accountability to me - in anything but the most vague and tenuous sense of the word.

Before my part of this conversation moved here we were in the Investigatory Powers Bill topic, where it was discussing it becoming law. I think we're all in agreement that is a terrible piece of law. Now imagine not only us not liking it in here, but also the majority of the country not liking it either. And the British government themselves not liking it and fighting against it - but it being foisted on us anyway from the EU against all our collective wills.

That is one of a number of problems I have with it. Not so much that it has happened already, but that there will be an ever growing scope for it to happen in the future.

Many laws and proposals for laws have been overturned because they were unpopular and there was much public protest:

Poll Tax? Abolished.
Mandatory ID Cards? Dropped.
90 days detention without charge? Dropped.
Selling off of public forests? Dropped.

How much would Brussels or Berlin care that the people of Birmingham were unhappy with something? Probably about as much as they cared about all the Greek protests - which is about the same amount as Washington cares about protesters in Tehran.

Junker said only last week that the people of Europe must be prevented from having any more referendums on the EU as most of them would vote against it, so I think it's pretty clear where they stand on democracy and accountability.

And just to answer one of Nexxo's points before I go:

Actually no, not true. The EU is a continually evolving beast. 'Ever closer union'. It looks different now than it did 10 years ago which, in turn, was different to 20 years ago. Even if we'd voted to stay in (and no other EU member decides to leave) it is markedly different now to what it will become in 10 years time, or 20 years time.

Again, I'm sure you'll disagree vehemently with me, but both options, staying and leaving, were both changes to our current position - staying in was not a vote for the status quo, it was for staying in an ever moving, ever progressing, ever changing union. I, personally, did not like the direction it was heading in.

I've got no hard feelings towards any of you - I don't mind that you all disagree with me, some of the best conversations I've ever had have been with people who disagree with me, I'm just disappointed that I apparently haven't even been able to persuade you to even look at it from a different perspective, or that people with a different opinion aren't all 'unthinking'.

Anyway, like I said, I think I'm done writing in here on this - I've already spent hours more on this than I wanted to, and I don't really want to spend hours more still.

Enjoy what's left of your weekends, I'll no doubt see you around the rest of the forum at some point, (I'm not a regular, but I pop in now and again).

Cheers.

 

Cameron got an opt-out from 'ever closer union'.

 

The media did a really poor job of making people aware of the benefits the UK had gained. There's was entirely too much focus on immigration and generally the things we didn't get.

 

UK: we want a Single Market
EU: Single Market

UK: we want EU expansion to East.
EU: EU expansion to East.

UK: Opt Outs!
EU: Opt Outs.

UK: Bye.

 

What, the non-legally binding one that other leaders in Europe were dismissing while Cameron was still waving it? It was a symbolic gesture, it didn't effect the way in which the whole of Europe was moving.

The treaties are still full of other phrases such as 'advancing European Integration' and 'convergence'.

Saying we've got an opt-out from it is meaningless when all the rest of the treaties amount to the same thing just rephrased in a different way. Ever close union, which ever way you say it, is the raison d'etre of the EU.

Night Nexxo.

 

The one that was going to be signed into law as soon as Cameron won the EU referendum. But, you know, keep dismissing that. 'Cause the EU can't be trusted, you know. I hear they're like the Borg collective.

I'll say. He also got exemption from any bail-out of the Euro and acknowledgement that the EU would recognise currencies other than the Euro (thus cementing London's position as financial powerhouse). Basically the UK would have had the best of all worlds; the kind of sweet deal that no other EU country has. And Britain tossed it all away.

Also:

UK: we want Euro clearing in London.
EU: Euro clearing in London.

UK: we want to start entering Turkey in the EU.
EU: let's start entering Turkey in the EU.
UK: WHAT ARE YOU CRAZY? WE CAN'T HAVE TURKEY IN THE UK!! THINK OF ALL THE BROWN PEOPLE!!! Bye.

 

I think a lot of it was down to the timing, Cameron simply waited too long with asking the EU to bendover backwards in exchange for us staying, by the time he got concessions from them most people had probably already made up their mind anyway.

 

Now it's

UK: Can we...
EU27: No

UK: What about...
EU27: No

UK: Ah but...
EU27: No

UK: ButYouNeedUsMoreThanWeNeedYou
EU27: No

 

It was always about immigration and it was the sole reason most voted leave, the other issues where thrown in so people could feel they where voting for a range of issues.

I doubt further media coverage of Cameron's deal would have changed much

 

True, dat. Immigration was the sole issue most people thought they understood. The rest was just "We're not xenophobic, honest" window dressing.

 

Official live updates for referendum results in Italy:

http://elezioni.interno.it/referendum/scrutini/20161204/FX01000.htm

Currently looks like a heavy defeat for Renzi, lets see if he follows through on his promise to quit...

 

Often times uneducated people will be more "intelligent" than well educated people simply because they haven't been educated enough to reason incorrectly. Most of the TRULY intelligent people I have met weren't spoon fed their education either. They were autodidact.

Remainers were driven by fear......"Cling to nurse for fear of worse", fear of loss of EU money (which is funded by your own taxes combined with the theft of other member nations wealth, pointed this out many times before). They remind me of the Caribbean slaves that rioted when they were emancipated: they were frightened by freedom, they preferred the security, food, housing and healthcare provided by the slave owners.


Edit.
For the past 15 years government has used terrorism as an excuse to build a massive surveillance apparatus which allows them warrantless searches, warrantless arrests and warrantless seizure. People haven't cared much about it, some have even been unwise to defend it.

This snooper charter should come as no surprise.

 

What's the big deal with the italian referendum. It looks like they want to centralise power. Why does anyone outside of Italy care about it?

 

The short version - if Renzi loses [the referendum comes back as No, which it did], Renzi resigns [which he did as I type this]. This means more elections and the instability and uncertainty that brings both to Italy and Europe as a whole. Especially as Renzi's main politcal opposition is [was, given he's just resigned] is the right-wing 5-Star Movement [Italy's answer to UKIP].

In the short term the jitters caused by this could affect the economy. In the long term it's harder to negotiate a deal when the people you're trying to negotiate with keep changing.

 

I dunno, its not like there was never going to be an election in Italy in the future. Plus parties that push further right than is usual are cropping up all over Europe. It seems like business as usual for Europe more so than anything that is news worthy. Brexit-wise these sort of power shifts are going to happen anyway and interrupt or alter Brexit proceedings in real-time and there is little to be done to counter it. It's just the nature of politics.

You'd think if centre left and right parties were concerned about right wing groups coming to power, they would start dealing with people's concerns so people don't have to turn to those groups for supposed answers and solutions to their problems. Although centre politics and peoples concerns may no longer be compatible.

Anyway if a country wants a populist nationalistic fascist-like state then it is perfectly entitled to have one.

 

I take it your historical reference is an example of autodidactism.

 

That people outside of Italy care about it comes from the economic problems in Italy and the implications that if it would have passed it might have been easier to fix those problems which in return would have taken a huge amount of pressure from the eurozone.

But now that is hasn't passed and Renzi has resigned it will be uncertainty ahead which won't be good for their economy.

If the UK government cared for anyone outside of London so they wouldn't have to rely on EU handouts to pay for things like roads...
Although Wales who receives plenty of EU money still voted to leave, so obviously that fear of loss of EU money was only one of many factors.

Also if the UK government passes laws like the snoopers charter don't we need someone (EU or not) to tell them that they shouldn't do it?