Catalonia and regional self-determination

I was following this story over the weekend and my view has gone from "well it's a prosperous region, with a bit of autonomy, they aren't going to vote for disruption" to "Um, if the Spanish government wan't to boost the independence vote, they've gone the right way about it".

I'm broadly of the view that if a region really doesn't want to be part of a bigger country they should be allowed to do their own thing and I don't see why national governments need to automatically oppose them.

There are local factors at play here. I can't imagine the UK deploying battalions of riot police from Essex or Birmingham to go and smash their way into Scottish poling stations. I know that there is a history of riot police being drawn from one region to deal with trouble in another. A Basque friend did once describe the civil guard who were send in to crack heads after a local feast day as something like "Big lads from (some rural region, somewhere) who's mothers never hugged them" or something like that....

I'm also a bit worried that the EU may be seen to be taking a more deferential approach to the Spanish government than it would with the newer members from Central Europe when they take an illiberal approach at home.

 

If Scotland suddenly decided to hold Indyref 2 tomorrow? Or N. Ireland suddenly held a reunification referendum tomorrow? Think again.

Not hearing much from freedom-and-independence-loving UKIP (or other Eurosceptic) MEPs either. I guess this was not their week to turn up at work.

Anyway, not your problem anymore. You're leaving, remember?

 

I have, both left and right are rolling out the same 'see, we were right to leave, this is what the EUSSR's idea of democracy is; the end of a riot baton' spiel

 

Got to love the irony: Eurosceptics who complain that the EU interferes too much in member states' internal affairs now complain that the EU doesn't interfere enough in a member state's internal affairs.

 

Just get rid of countries in the EU altogether and make it a United States of Europe.

 

So a group of semi-independent states that have historically hated each other and cant agree on anything meaningful leaving them unable to form one coherent country as a result.

How is that any different to the EU [or UK if we're honest] now?

 

This will only serve to vulcanize the independence movement in Catalonia and win over new supporters. Support in spite of the 90% result, is not actually massive. Previous poles showed low support for independence and there was only a small turn out. Given the illegal nature of the vote and all the bedlam from the police, you are bound to only get your pro-independence people out to vote. So really, its not that great of a referendum. Its pretty skewed towards independence.

It seems they are at a political dead end though. The only peaceful option would be to ruin Catalonia economically to the point that it is a large deficit in Spain's economy and the Spanish get sick of them and give them their independence willingly.

 

P

The UK isn't being towed out into the Atlantic and I see no proposal to close our embassys in Europe. On that basis should you be allowed a view on US politics?

This thread was expressing interest and concern about the situation and trying to raise a more general question (see title).

 

This is what the EU respecting a member state's sovereignty looks like. You can rest assured that there is a lot of backroom mediation going on right now.

But the UK turned down any further opportunity to involve itself in European affairs (or have any real influence on US ones). So, yeah, have concerns and opinions, but don't expect British views to make any difference anymore.

 

I don't disagree with the heavy pro-independence skew of the results, but even so 90% with a 42% turnout seems pretty high to me. The Scottish independence referendum turnout was almost exactly double that, so if an uncontroversial unboycotted referendum matched that turnout then the extra voters who stayed away this time would have to be more than 90% against.

 

It's high because mostly the only people who turn out to a vote without any legal basis are the people who want to change things, all the polling data I've looked at shows a fairly even split although the way things have been handled i dare say many more people are going to support independence now.

I'm not sure Spain could have handled things any worse although given time I'm sure they'll try.

 

Sources? I've been horribly busy and haven't seen zip on this in terms of actual figures, so would be interested.

 

It's in no way an authoritative source so don't shoot the messenger but i was going on this wiki article.

 

Cheers matey.

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...ays-president-carles-puigdemont-a7981756.html

 

And you have anything to contribute on this topic other than banging on about brexit?

 

I guess he'll say he's sticking to his commitment, but the poll didn't specify the date, or a UDI. They again, Madrid's response to the poll did make this likely. You have to expect that ist is unlikely to end up separating, but if Spain continues to antoagonise them then support will grow. Remember this is an economically sucessful region. IT would be viable as a independant country unless Spain decides to make it hell, which alas seems likely.

 

I'm pointing out that you are expecting the kind of intervention by the EU in Spanish affairs, that the UK would not accept in its own.

 

I didn't say they should. However I was noting, and it was a secondary point, that if it appears that the EU has rather more to say about dodgy behaviour in Central European members than longer standing member countries, that it may be storing up trouble. for itself in the future.

Not about Brexit, we have another thread for that.

I'm more interested in whether it is still appropriate in modern society for a kingdom or republic to feel that it has the right to keep all of it's provinces under it's control by force, even if the people, over time, would prefer to manage their own affairs or have some other relationship.