Hoping to have some insightful discussion about physical punishment in the UK as it's very likely it will soon be outlawed not only in Scotland but the rest of the UK as well. I figured the best way to start the discussion would be with the simple question: were you smacked as a child? And perhaps we can go on to discuss if we found it helpful and whether or not it's a good thing to do.
Yep, I was smacked as a child. I've never smacked my kids, but have always said I reserve the right to.
That's exactly it, innit? Aside from the matter of smacking in and of itself, I'm of the opinion that the government shouldn't interfere in these matters--at least, not to this extent. In order to protect children from domestic violence the government is abrogating the paernts' right to choose how best to discipline their children, so as usual the baby goes out with the bathwater.
I was only ever smacked once for lighting multiple fires, the final straw being setting a petrol can on fire. I’m not sure how a ban would be enforced for individual cases of smacking anyway.
Yeah, this is how I feel. I was never smacked as a child, I've never smacked my kids and I fully intend never to smack them either.
Going around schools to see where my daughter should go it's clear that many need a good bloody slap, the lack of any real discipline gets carried into school and as teachers have no power to do anything for fear of jobs it has kids going about like they run the place. The mere threat of it in school was enough to keep most in line in my day.
Of course it is possible that some of those feral children are getting slapped at home, but randomly. So they learn that might makes right, and engage in an aggressive dominance dynamic at school like happens at home. Smacking does not magically install boundaries and discipline. The medium is not the message.
Serious ramifications for parents of children who tell somebody that they are being (or have been) smacked. It's basically being equated to child abuse and would effectively be reported as such, so the consequences would be pretty dire for the parent(s). I agree completely - and that's precisely why smacking should only ever happen within an established and controlled framework of discipline. Some parents will beat their children without a second thought, and often out of anger; others will only smack as a last resort and there will be a very clear context of discipline in place (e.g. you were warned three times); furthermore, it will be a hand on the arse rather than something actually traumatising. To me, the idea that the latter should be considered child abuse is utterly nonsensical. We aren't losing the plot... we've already lost it, and that's the seed we're sowing for future generations.
I'm 25, and my mother still slaps me across the wrists in public if im being a prat. I was smacked because I was a little s*** of a child.
I was smacked. Didn't get it then, don't get it now. That said, I don't care. Some kids are little shits and would be even if you beat the **** out of them. Arguably, more so. With my current desire not to have any, it doesn't really affect me in the slightest.
I think this is a generational thing, but I expect there's more issue with people from other cultures living in the UK?
I certainly wouldn't advocate it normally, but I do wonder if there are situations where one might have to smack a (presumably younger) child in the interest of safety, where other measures aren't immediate/powerful enough. That said, I don't know much about child psychology, and I don't have any of my own, so I don't know how children respond to various sanctions. Plus, it's not like it's difficult to physically restrain a child in most situations.
What do we (collectively) consider a smack anyway? If we go by the OED definition it's a sharp slap or blow, typically one given with the palm of the hand, however by that definition then it would include incidents like when my old man smacked me in the face and broke my hooter. I understand that's not typical but children tend to learn from their parents and as such if you show them the way to resolve what are nearly always emotional charged problems is to become violent then that's the tools they'll use when confronted with emotional charged problems.
And thats the problem. When I was smacked, it was the act of being hit accross the wrists or the like, I wasn't lamped in the fact, which I don't think anyone is advocating. I think you don't really need government legislation saying 'you shouldn't punch your kids in the face', as those who do it, will carry on doing it. Its going to create a vast grey area, where parents who want their best of their kids, and were brought up with smacking, are going to be paraded as barbaric child abusers. I feel like its a vast vast net, to catch a few small fish.
I was smacked a few of times as a child, and I deserved it. Negative reinforcement works when applied right (yes, I believe there's a 'right' way). Perhaps interestingly, it was always my mother who smacked me - I can't ever remember my father doing so, whereas a few of my friends would (very, very occasionally) get the belt from their father when they REALLY did something wrong. My rules for appropriate smacking would be: Used as the third strike for doing something that has already been requested to be stopped, with a clear warning on the second time that the third will result in smacking. Smacking should never be a 'lashing out' - it should always be a controlled action. There should absolutely be no lasting physical damage, or trips to the hospital! Basically I'm saying that smacking should be limited to the bum or hand. On a side note, pulling down trousers and pants is unacceptable. A clear explanation to the child about why they are about to be smacked. Might sound weird, but nothing wrong with a hug or cuddle afterwards before being sent to their room. Smacking should NEVER be used as a punishment for poor performance in something e.g. homework. Punishment in public is a bit of a tricky one. I've seen it only a few times - some were arguably deserved and followed the 'Pete J smacking code of conduct', whereas others did seem to be (no other way of putting it) chavs just striking their offspring at the first sign of disobedience. However, I believe that public punishment is actually important as otherwise a child may learn that they can get away with bad behaviour in public. I also believe that those who are against smacking generally tend (I MUST stress this is my own developed opinion) to have been actually physically abused as children (not necessarily sexually - oh boy, can of worms right there), rather than moderated 'correctional' behaviour. I suppose the frequency of smacking needs to be analysed - if a child is, say, being struck more than once a month(?), then something is clearly wrong. Ultimately, I think that all this comes around from people trying to please everyone. I think Nexxo will be the expert on this, but in my (somewhat questionable) experience, smacking works for the most part, but you will end up with the occasional child who won't respond well. It's a numbers game - accept the fact that there are those who will just not fit in no matter what. Everyone's caught up with trying to accommodate every possible behaviour. Basically, I'm siding with LennyRhys on this one. I'm aware that it's a minefield of a topic, but the concept of crime and punishment is an important one to learn. I would like to end by saying that my opinions are based mainly on personal feeling - I have not looked up statistics or any research. Just listened to the occasional debate on the radio.
I've been spanked a few times when I was little and in retrospect don't see any harm in it. In Flanders in these kind of discussions the term "pedagogical tap" is often used, which reflects what I think it should be at most: - Minimally painful (e.g. flat palm of hand on bum). A slap in the face or using "utensils" like a belt is completely out of the question. - For "educational" purposes, as a direct response to specific bad behaviour - At an age where a painful stimulus can be educational (not too young but not too old either, where it can become just humiliating) - Used very sparingly Still, I know nothing about raising children, so if there are non-violent ways of dealing with those extreme cases where one could consider a "tap", that would obviously be preferable. Ideally, I'd want to raise my children without any violence.
The way I was punished when I was a kid would no doubt today end with me, my brother and sister being taken away from my parents and they would be in prison because it would be seen as "Serious Physical Abuse" and whilst I did turn out to not be a thug, criminal etc, sometimes it was abit much, being left with red hand prints or belt marks, or on a few occasions bruises, I was a little devil though. I have "friends" who were never smacked as a kid and they are all in prison currently because they were never taught any form of punishment for wrong doing. Now would they have different attitudes towards life etc if they were smacked and given what I would consider proper discipline, some of them yes but some of them no, they probably would be the same however we currently cannot go back in time to find out. Recently my sister was given a letter, by the school of her eldest daughter who is 6 and in it, it stated that my niece had told a teacher that her uncle (me) had shouted at her and it scared her, now I did sort of shout at her but never raised my hands to her because she is not my child, and all I said in a slightly louder voice was that if she carried on trying to slap her mum that I would take her home and she would not be allowed back in this house for one week, no threat of violence etc just a 1 week ban from this house. The school said to my sister that they wanted to speak to my sister about me and to discuss how they intend to take it forward and deal with the matter, when I found out I was furious not with my sister or niece but with the school so I arranged to go and speak to the teacher and head master of the school, when I spoke to them they said that you cannot raise your voice to a child in any situation or raise your hands, you have to speak quietly and calmly to the child to explain what they had done wrong etc, my response was quite simple in that, I said "My niece will not be brought up to think that this world is full of cushions and nice people who only want to be kind and where everyone wins and does nothing wrong" at which point they said they would contact social services about me if my niece ever told them that I had raised my voice to her again, and they would push for me to be basically blocked from having any contact with my nieces or nephew for there safety. My eldest niece knows about this and try's to blackmail me with it, so my sister was told quite simply that she is not to come here again whilst I am here, because I will not be blackmailed by a 6 year old, so I see her sister and brother and do not see her, she gets no presents or money etc it's like she doesn't exist until she learns that she is wrong. Now the way I see it, is that sometimes not all the times but sometimes a kid will not learn from being told what they have done wrong and sometimes you may need to smack them but I would never leave a mark, smack them in the face or head etc it would either be a smack on the back of the hand or on the bum but not enough to as I say leave a mark but enough to make them aware that they have done something wrong. I went to the pub the other night with the women I am seeing and we were sat having a drink and we saw a women hit a bloke, just because he spoke to another women whilst with her, the bloke took none of it and hit her back and the amount of abuse he got was stupid and he got arrested not her but he got arrested for assault, I laughed and said to her that if she ever hit me she would get it right back and she agreed she said that I would be within my rights to hit her back, and same goes if I ever hit her, although she knows I never would intentionally hit her. A friend of my brother had his kids taken off him and his wife because his eldest son told a teacher that his dad hit him, then admitted that he lied after 2 years but they were not allowed to have there kids back because they were settled in with the foster parents and they have been told they will never get there kids back, because they are to settled and cannot guarantee that the kid wasn't telling a lie despite the other kids saying they had never been hit, there eldest son admitted he lied because his parents had to cancel a holiday to disney land because of a death in the family. I mean this world that we live in now, is so pathetically weak that people get offended and hurt by so many silly stupid things, I mean if you pay a women or a bloke a compliment you need to be careful as it may be seen as rape or sexual harassment, if you make a joke about something you need to be careful because you may offend someone and you could loose your family and career over it, you have 1 group of people that are allowed to say one word but then no other group of people can say that same word because it will make them "racist" and this is the world that we live in where newer generation of kids are seeing this and are going to be a bunch of cowards with no experience of how difficult the world can be at times. If alot of todays kids were alive 30 years ago, they would see what it was like and how different the kids attitude towards there elders was, because even myself who was a little devil, from swearing at teachers, beating my brother up, damaging peoples cars etc etc, when my dad got home from being away with the army, I got it big time and eventually I wised up and started to respect my elders and other kids, but I can tell you now I wouldn't have if I grew up in this day and age because I would know that no one could touch me and that, is the problem you "care bear" people to much and they refuse to acknowledge that there is such a thing as right and wrong. Now if I have kids in the future then quite simply I don't care what the law is, if they have done something seriously wrong they will get a slap on the hand or bum but I will not do it all the time for anything and everything and I will never use a belt or anything like that and never leave a mark. So as you can probably tell I agree with physical punishment but it has to be deserved and a last resort, and never to the point of actually doing physical harm to the child and maybe that way alot of these kids that are running riot these days, laughing at adults would have a change of mind.
