1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Hundreds protest Pirate Bay raid

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Cthippo, 5 Jun 2006.

  1. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    1 Sep 2004
    Posts:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    50
    Thats fine for a media outlet, which needs different fileformats and bitrates, and would agree that allofmp3 is a fantastic model, but what about software be it microsofts os, games and other programs which is what Colonel Sanders seemed to be striving at. should all software companies now have to release all software for free and if so who's going to support the writters and hence make improvements.
     
  2. specofdust

    specofdust Banned

    Joined:
    26 Feb 2005
    Posts:
    9,571
    Likes Received:
    168
    Well, maybe a paid software business approach is losing its place in the market. With ever increasing support and business(as well as home) usage of open source software, maybe no-one needs to pay for software for too much longer. Or perhaps, more realisticly, consumers will be given more options, and not be left with the only realistic option being to buy an OS that costs £150 or more.

    Give consumers what they actually want and they will buy it, give them something they want but rip them off, and they will steal it. The ball is in the companies court, the market reacts to certain factors, and the main factor that the current market will respond to is decent software at a reasonable price. Failing that, The Pirate Bay will keep the world going.
     
  3. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    Do the torrent files hosted on the Pirate Bay enable individuals to download illegal material, such as games, movies, music, operating systems and other files? Yes. Does the Pirate Bay function as a tracker, thus aiding individuals to transfer illegal data? Yes. The Pirate Bay has found a loophole, and a crummy one at that. Should a torrent that is linked to illegal material be legal? By your argument, you seem to think it should be. The rest of the world uses common sense and realizes the problem.

    Do the torrents hosted on the Pirate Bay and other websites enable a user to obtain and use illegal material? Yes. The torrents hosted there are a direct link to illegal material. The Pirate bay is providing a link to illegal material, and also saying "look, theres illegal material here".

    What I don't understant is why you pretend that the torrents which the Pirate Bay hosts, which link illegal material, are even close to legitamate, especially if your opposed to warez. . .

    L J
     
  4. themax

    themax What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    2 Dec 2005
    Posts:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    3
    I think what people are trying to say is...do a search in Google for similar things. You will get plenty of hits and direct links to illegal material. Hell most of the simple things can be found by just "googling" it. Also google has additional search links under it's hits for "similar pages". You can't slap it on Pirate Bay like that and not leave out search engines in general.
     
  5. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    But the exception for Google is that Google does not host any material which is a direct link to illegal material, and Google has far more legitamate uses. Also, most of the links provided by Google are competely legal. Most of the links from the pirate bay are not legal. Also Google does not have a torrent tracker directly aiding the transfer of illegal material. It would be nice if Google found a way to remove all references to illegal material in it's search results.

    L J
     
  6. Devil Bunny

    Devil Bunny Yarrr, there be termites in me leg!

    Joined:
    24 Sep 2005
    Posts:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're wrong there, what about the google cached pages eh. For instance they have cached TBP, hence making google Illegal by your definition.

    http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache....org/+The+Pirate+Bay&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

    Either way you look at it, everything can be illegal if you use it in the wrong way. For instance lets look at the Firearms industry, their making guns that are being sold to people, now if someone goes out and buys a gun then kills or injures people should the gun company and store that sold the gun be held responceable for the persons decision. No becuase they were simply there selling the guns, in no way did they tell the person to kill someone with it.
     
  7. SparkuS

    SparkuS What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    27 Jul 2003
    Posts:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    crummy?

    It sounds great to me. Go start a anti-PB cult and see what support you get - bunch of fat-cats with their porsches. Nobody cares. You are telling us nothing new.
     
  8. J-Pepper

    J-Pepper Minimodder

    Joined:
    20 Jul 2004
    Posts:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    4
    That in itself is not 100% correct.

    TPB actually acts as a posting board (like the ones you can find in communal places) and on that posting board, anybody who is a member of that community can post on that board.

    TPB just provides the space and ability to post. It's up to the users to decide what they should post up there. If the users decide to post up a map to where there is a un-secure bank, then it's not TPB fault in the eyes of the law. TPB can decide to censor, but they decide not too, that in itself is not illegal either.

    If nobody posts links to illegal material on TPB, then there wouldn't be an issue, but people do and it's not illegal for TPB to not stop them as the act of posting the torrent (or map to an un-secure bank) is in itself not illegal.

    What is illegal is for a posting board reader to read the 'map', find the 'tools' to steal what ever is in the bank (i.e. BT) and then actually steal from the bank (using the 'map' and the 'tool' together and download from the 'bank').

    Just because BT is so popular and easy now-a-days that even a dog can do it doesn't make what TPB is doing illegal... just makes the TPB more visible.
     
  9. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    Please find a realistic argument, one that has a chance of ever standing up in a court case. For one thing, thats a nice cache of The Pirate Bay's homepage, but the links I tried all that page all re-direct you to torrents hosted on The Pirate Bay. Show me an actual torrent file hosted on a google server.

    Next, that is a cache. Google did not originally host the illegal material, Google has simply mirrored a lot of web-pages on the web, and it so happens that accidentally caught an illegal webpage.

    It is still arguable that Google is [b[not[/b] a direct source for illegal material, and The Pirate Bay is.

    Crummy = American term for poor. The Pirate Bay's loophole is a pathetic loophole. The courts can see right through what the Pirate Bay is doing, and what they are doing does not make their activity any more legal.
    The "anti-PB cult" has alreaby been started, it consists of members of the MPAA (for once I actually like what the MPAA is doing. . .), the US governement, and everyone else who owns the copyrights to material on the Pirate Bay. Perhaps you disagree with those "fat-cats with porsches", unfortuantely, those "fat-cats" have a pretty good point. I could lecture you on why piracy is wrong, what good would it do? Does pirating software make you cool? Does "sticking to it the man" somehow justify what you typed write there? :rolleyes:

    L J
     
  10. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    You are entierly correct in the sense that what TPB does is "technically" legal. However, laws in the US are not that simple. For example, the first amendment grants freedom of speach- a person can say anything, right? Ha, wrong. Hustler magazine tried to use freedom of speach to spread slander about a Miss America pagent contestant, Hustler wrote an article makeing her look like a whore, and she sued Hustler magazine (and won the case) for libel- slander. How do we know if something is covered by the first amendment, or if something is not allowed? We have a trial, we let the public decide using the laws as a guideline. Technically, Hustler magazine may have had a right to write the article, but in the legal world, Hustler magazine lost a lot of money.

    If you throw TPB's case in front of a jury- the exact same thing will happen- people will recognize that TPB primairly acts as a source of illegal material, despite the fact that they are attempting to use clever loop-holes. I'd be happy if TPB could at least attempt to prevent the spreading of any illegal material from their website. As it is, I believe that web-site is nothing more than a very public meeting area for pirates.

    L J
     
  11. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

    Joined:
    15 Feb 2004
    Posts:
    12,574
    Likes Received:
    16
    How about every copyrighted image on the internet, for starters? Google's cached them. This is what got the WaybackMachine (or internet archive or something) in trouble a few years back. They've created copies of copyrighted material. Yes, of course the links point to torrents - google caches the page in its exact form - it doesn't modify the contents to redirect to Google's other cached version. Google doesn't cache linux distros either.

    Seriously, just go sign up with AntiPiratByran and smile to yourself. Our law doesn't apply in Sweden, nor does it apply in the Netherlands (TBP rehosting), Russia (AllofMP3, and I believe another TBP rehost) or China (censorship laws, among others). If you don't like that, then move to the offending country and try to gain power.
     
  12. Devil Bunny

    Devil Bunny Yarrr, there be termites in me leg!

    Joined:
    24 Sep 2005
    Posts:
    17
    Likes Received:
    0

    i have seen plenty if law suits against firearm maunfactures for the misuse of there firearms. Just because some one was stupid enought to use it against someone else and that persons relatives decided to sue the manufacture because it was there gun that was used, and there have been many wins and losses on both sides untill recently where a law was passed saying that gun manufactures are not responsible for the misuse of thier products. As you see, it has been to court and it has held its ground for both sides, so don't try to insult me.

    Wether you like it or not TPB is not illegal untill they start hosting the actuall torrents themselves.
     
  13. Stanmanfoo

    Stanmanfoo What's a Dremel?

    Joined:
    14 Sep 2003
    Posts:
    127
    Likes Received:
    1
    Something that comes to mind for me is, let's say for example, that TBP acts merely as a courier. They do not have illegal information hosted per se, they simply allow users to find it. By this logic, ISP's should be legally bound to block illegal material, or otherwise they are aiding in this illegal downloading to the exact same extent that TBP is.

    If PB is illegal because it enables and aids users in finding illegal content and downloading it, this is no different from an ISP. If I had interest in doing so, I could probably go find child pornography. AFAIK, my ISP does not block this type of material, so are they not aiding (well if not aiding, then at least allowing) me in finding it if I were to choose to? Obviously an extreme case, but it points out what I mean.

    I believe that the ultimate solution to this lies in the fact that people are responsible for thier actions. The problem with illegal downloading lies with the users, not the providers ('allowers' I guess they'd be called in this situation). As much as I hate the RIAA/MPAA, people that steal copywrited material should be held responsible for that.

    Of course now that I've said all this, I see no good way to 'solve' this problem. The current society is becoming more and more comprised of people who download music and don't want the problem solved. They don't see it as a problem.
     
  14. Glider

    Glider /dev/null

    Joined:
    2 Aug 2005
    Posts:
    4,173
    Likes Received:
    21
    For god's sake... Colonel Sanders, I know you don't like to hear it, but there is absolutely nothing illegal about a torrent. A torrent contains a hash code, no copyrighted material. So stop the messing around. You'd have a point if TPB hosted illegal stuff, but they don't. TPB is as illegal as Google is...

    And your example about freedom of speech is yet another great example of how the USA work... And besides, freedom of speech != the right to slander people... But now that we are talking about "the land of the free" as they call it, which isn't quite a rolemodel, even if they pretend they are...The idiotic laws of your country don't apply outside it's borders, wetter you like it or not. So stop comparing countries like Sweden and The Netherlands with the your country, because, frankly, they deserve better comparisons...
     
  15. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    (Firehed, this applies to you too) First off, I have never claimed all of Googles actions are "fine and prefectly legal"- nor do I believe Google is some sort of company impossible of doing anything wrong. By your argument, then lets shut down Google! Who cares about the fact that Google's good uses far outweigh it's bad uses, unlike TPB. Remember the P2P cases? P2P is legal, because it's good uses far outweigh it's bad uses. Please, stop using BS examples.

    Now, what is the hash file used for? 99% of the time, that hash file is used for pirating illegal material.

    You have only one argument "the torrent doesn't containt copyrighted material". Yes, thats true. However, does that torrent provide a direct link to copyrighted material? Does TPB function as a tracker to aid the trafficing of pirtated material? Do you honestly think that providing a direct link to copyrighted material, and even aiding in the transfer, should be legal?

    Freedom of speach- then pay attention to the principle in my example. Technically, a person could argue that "freedom of speach" grants a person the right to slander, just like you are arguing that TPBs actions are fine. no one disputes that slander is not OK, despite that fact that the 1st ammendment grants "freedom of speach" (and last time I looked, that ammendment had no extra clauses). This time, there is a simple law- don't spread illegal material. Is TPB breaking that law? Simple answer- yes.

    It's nice to see you dislike the USA. Though on the topic of theft, it's not allowed in the USA, and last time I checked, theft is not encouraged in any country. No matter how much you dislike the USA (for whatever reason you may have) that does not grant you the right to declare theft legal. If I fly over to your house, break in one night, steal all your cash, and fly back to the US- have I commited a crime? By your argument, because I don't like the way Belgium's laws against theft are worded, they don't apply to me in the Us (despite the fact that US has anti-theft laws. . .), so I never did anything wrong. :rolleyes:

    I never knew a law against theft was "idiotic". Are you trying to suggest that if I want to be a software pirate I shoudl move to Belgium, Sweden, or Russia? :rolleyes: Apparently, you are not violating a copyright, because American copyrights are just not cool enough to be honored in other countries. Somehow, despite the fact that you are getting material free when you should be paying for it, you think your not stealing? Copyright laws and theft are two different, but very similar ideas. Please find me a source for any law that allows the stealing of anything in Sweden or any other country.

    Laws in other countries- tell me, do those other countries encourage theft? Apparently, in what ever country you care to name, it is OK to steal anything as long as it's foreign? I find that hard to believe.

    Stanmanfoo- if you really want ISPs to sensor everything you download, go right ahead! Next you will be accusing the US of being comunist, despite the fact that sensoring illegal material would not really be a communist thing to do. But by all means, please try to get ISPs to sense the web. Please read a little about why P2P software is legal. The good uses of an ISP not filtering everything outweigh the bad.

    Devil Bunny- if you really want to argue about gun laws, that would require a different thread, but I like how you finish that off by pointing out that gun manufacturers are no longer responsable for someone misusing their products.
     
  16. specofdust

    specofdust Banned

    Joined:
    26 Feb 2005
    Posts:
    9,571
    Likes Received:
    168
    Colonol Sanders, you're using morals in your arguement. Forget them :)

    The record industry has being immorally screwing artists and consumers for the last 60 or so years. So why should it be treated any better? The tossers at the top of the companies and orginisations who get rich from artists who stay poor, they use tax laws and clever accountants who know loopholes in order to not pay tax(at least, most mega-rich people do).

    In the current state of the industry, there is no point in arguing over morals, since neither side has any. What you can argue over is legality, and TPB is legal in its host countries.
     
  17. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

    Joined:
    15 Feb 2004
    Posts:
    12,574
    Likes Received:
    16
    (apparently merely copying and pasting it parses out most of the gibberish)

    Look illegal to you?

    Done.
     
  18. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    Simply because what they do may be wrong, does not mean that we should bring ourselves to their level.

    Nice try Firehed. I ask again, what was that torrent file used for? My best guess, based opun the "episdoe 3" is that you probbably used that torrent file, and Azureus to pirate Star Wars Episode 3 (again, thats just a guess do to you improper usage of a torrent file). So if you want my opinion, it does look illegal.

    L J
     
  19. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

    Joined:
    15 Feb 2004
    Posts:
    12,574
    Likes Received:
    16
    No, I wouldn't bother with that craptastic movie. It was a podcast, before I actually had a podcasting client. Not only was the file that it linked to legal, the torrent file was created and then posted online by the creator of said file.

    Plus, I was referring to the contents itself. That descriptor followed by a load of gibberish isn't copyrighted material, nor does it resemble either anything that IS copyrighted or anything that someone would have a vague desire to copyright. That's what TPB serves up. To the letter of the law, the file itself isn't even illegal in the US, though you'll find that anyone with enough money (read: RIAA, MPAA) can change peoples interpretation fairly easily.
     
  20. Colonel Sanders

    Colonel Sanders Minimodder

    Joined:
    25 Jun 2002
    Posts:
    1,210
    Likes Received:
    4
    So I guessed wrong fair enough. I don't remember claiming torrents are illegal. What I do remember claiming is that torrents linking to illegal material should be illegal.

    L J
     

Share This Page