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News Child abuse in Second Life?

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Tim S, 14 May 2007.

  1. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    I agree with some of what you are saying but I disagree strongly with the rest.

    Allow me to elaborate.

    As it stands we must consider that things do not happen in a vacuum. This is a given. Art (and any other form of expression from painting, to movies, to music etc) cannot be produced with any substance without external influences. This is also a fact.

    The extension of this is:

    External influence -> expression and retelling -> Action

    The position that violent imagery, sexual media etc beget action on their own is ignoring the evidence in favor of a predetermined answer.

    Now I do not suggest that the odd nut-case out there will draw from the things he has seen, experienced etc but these are factors of his environment and an abusive father figure who runs down puppy's in a Mazda is as likely a cause of violent behavior as anything else. Movies, games, music, books etc are part of the environment in which such a dangerous personality develops and so are fluffy bunnys, difficult teachers, cheating girlfriends, morons in traffic and bad political decisions.

    It is the fact that the subject is a dangerous sociopath (insert disorder here) that is the issue and the video games are merely incidental (I would further suggest that the type of personality we are discussing would have pre existing predilections for such material and would seek out as much as he could find).

    The same principals can be applied to the issue of pedophiles. It is not contact with material that makes them a pedophile, it is the fact that they are a pedophile that makes them seek the material. While that material may exacerbate the subjects condition it is not the cause.

    An analogy to this is penicillin.

    Billions of doses of penicillin are administered each year. Out of which there is a small number of people (lets say 1%) who suffer adverse reaction. Of which perhaps 1% die from the reaction. This means that penicillin has a kill count of (conservatively) 10-100,000 people per year. There is not a single doctor out there who would call for an end to the prescription of penicillin based on these figures.

    Compare the kill count of video games that can (spuriously) be directly attributed. Maybe 10-100 per year (a very optimistic figure). Yet there is an un -ceasing call for banning of video games, restrictions on content etc in order to cater to the 1 in 1,000,000 nutter who will imitate something he has seen.

    It is putting the cart before the horse to blame media etc for the ills of the world

    Further to this I would point to (cant remember his name) in Japan whose study on teenagers playing violent video games noted increased aggression after play. These results were touted by many different sources to state that the link between video games. These results were, of course, utterly useless because they failed to take into account the myriad other influences on teenagers and young people that lead to aggression such as hormonal changes, angst, diet, performance anxiety or the difficulty of the video games themselves.

    While I agree that there may be some correlation between games, movies, music etc and emotional state (hardly deniable by anyone who has sat through a well produced play or a Beethoven concerto) but to suggest that these changes in emotional state are a danger to the public at large or are the root cause of anti-social or deviant behavior is, in my opinion (supported by the evidence and logic), false.

    Back to age play (which is the main point). Simply stating that it is unusual is not criteria enough to warrant suspicion. The definition of unusual is far too broad especially where sexuality is concerned.

    I do not pretend to be an expert in all things age-play/BDSM/Role Play/Rape play etc nor in the workings of the groups themselves however I know many people do indulge in what can only be described as cathartic fantasy. Whether it is conducive to healing or not is another matter, simply that they are extreme fantasies for sexual or lifestyle reasons is enough to validate the comparison.

    There is, however, no explanation for Trekkies and Spock ears.
     
  2. Amon

    Amon inch-perfect

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    Fair enough. I fully support what hivemind187 is pushing. You and CardJoe, on the other hand, have a tendency of making some wobbly connections and conclusions. They are fair arguments nonetheless, but simply lose their substance when you resorted to demoralizing your opposition with some disagreeable undertone.
     
    Last edited: 16 Jul 2007
  3. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    The Shadowrun guy who was the lingerie thief? His own psychiatrist said he is just a nutter! Can't blame the game for one mad goon with a panty fetish.

    As for my other comment and your invite, I was referring to the community in response to cardjoes admitted inability to read more than a half dozen lines without being distracted.
     
  4. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    Thanks, nicely put.
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I distincly remember not demoralising the "opposition" (who is that, anyway?), or making any disparaging remarks about anyone particular in this discussion. Furthermore, I think you are both getting the wrong end of the stick (crap; I thought I was being so clear...). OK, here goes.

    I am empathically NOT saying that age-play creates child abuse, like I am frequently saying that CSS does not create school shootings, and violent films or games do not creat psychopaths. There is a large body of scientific evidence that violence in games and films is associated with subsequent aggressive behaviour (albeit for a given value of aggression --going postal has not yet been recreated under experimental conditions). Similarly there is a large body of evidence that sex offenders use pornographic material to "work up to" their committing the act. As I said in my previous post:
    No surprises there, really; people will seek out what stimulates them, and use it to stimulate them. The above studies (as I frequently point out) tend not to make very clear this direction of the relationship: that violent psychopaths simply like violent games, and sex offenders like certain types of pornograpy. What the studies tend to focus on is the other direction of the association: that these people may use such media to stimulate them to commit their acts. As you yourself say:

    It is a reasonable assumption that paedophiles will gravitate towards virtual age-play worlds to act out their fantasies. This does not make all age-players paedophiles, in the same way that not all CSS players are violent psychopaths or all firemen potential arsonists. I am not blaming the games (I thought I had made very clear), nor the people that generally indulge in them. I am just saying that certain types of nutter will gravitate towards certain types of games, and that this is where the German police are coming from when they investigate age-play sites for sex offenders.

    Again, as I said:
     
    Last edited: 16 Jul 2007
  6. Hells_Bliss

    Hells_Bliss What's a Dremel?

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    Child abuse in any form should be punished by having the guy sit in the biggest bubba's lap for an unlubed hershy ride, followed by castration and then executed with the most cruel and unusual punishment known to man. Somebody who does this is taking a child's innocence, their childhood is ruined because some F***er couldn't keep it in his pants.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Er... a bit non-sequitor, Hells Bliss.
     
  8. Hells_Bliss

    Hells_Bliss What's a Dremel?

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    well, i never could read War and Peace to the end, so it's not like I'm going to read this whole thread :p Point is, Child abuse in any form shouldn't be tolerated regardless if its just "fantasy" That's a line you just don't cross IMO.
     
  9. DeX

    DeX Mube Codder

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    Hehe, isn't it great to have a nice long big discussion like this to try to establish some sort of consensus only to have someone take absolutely no notice of it. Sigh... freedom speech just doesn't work if people won't listen.

    Edit: Also isn't it great that we can have opinions without knowing why we have them. Hells bliss, if you try to rationalise your opinion I think you'll find you'll either base it on more general opinions, or you'll just come across some of the issues raised already in this thread.
     
    Last edited: 16 Jul 2007
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I indeed mentioned certain examples of nutters to emphasise that this is the issue: most people can keep virtual pretend and real life seperate quite easily, but occasionally people can't because they are nutters. And certain nutters gravitate to certain virtual fantasies for reasons often quite specific to them, and not shared by other (sane) people indulging in the same fantasy. That is where the problem lies.
     
  11. oddball walking

    oddball walking ...!

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    :thumb::lol:
     
  12. Hells_Bliss

    Hells_Bliss What's a Dremel?

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    [​IMG]
     
  13. Hells_Bliss

    Hells_Bliss What's a Dremel?

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    why would I need to rationalize something that is considered morally, socially, and personally unacceptable (oh and legally too)? Do you dispute the fact that abusing a child has an adverse impact on their lives? Do you dispute that acting out something like child abuse is not in any way acceptable?
     
  14. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    So, in short, the crazies use the "simulations" to prepare for the real act. The rest of the world treats it as what it's supposed to be - harmless entertainment.

    Right?

    As I've voiced in other threads that venture into this murky territory, society places way too much value on age when trying to criminalize otherwise-legal acts. Yes, we've defined 18 to be adult. Does that indicate that a 17-year-old doesn't know what s/he is getting into, just because s/he is under the magic age? I should think not. Sure, there's a point, but it's psycological, not age-based, as I'm sure our resident shrink would agree with. I'd suggest closer to the 11-13 age, but I'm no expert. Regardless, it appears beside the point as it sounds like it's all consenting adults just pretending with no actual children involved so it's a non-issue. If actual CP images are trading hands - see above.
     
  15. Spaceraver

    Spaceraver Ultralurker

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    This reminds me of the old interview thingie:

    >Thanks to the office of Rep. Edward Royce, California Republican,
    >for sending us the following excerpt from a local radio interview.
    >The female newscaster is interviewing the leader of a youth club:
    >
    >Interviewer: "So, Mr. Jones, what are you going to do with these
    > children on this adventure holiday?"
    >Mr. Jones: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery,
    > shooting."
    >
    >Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"
    >Mr. Jones: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the
    > range."
    >
    >Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous
    > activity to be teaching children?"
    >Mr. Jones: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper
    > range discipline before they even touch a firearm."
    >
    >Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
    >Mr. Jones: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're
    > not one, are you?"
    >
    >End of the interview.
    >

    See where im getting at??
     
  16. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    Fair enough. I think it was the way you phrazed it. I took it that you were implying that the choice of recreational material dictates later behavior as a root cause.

    I have no problem with certain materials being sought out by a nutter to indulge and reinforce whatever twisted fantasies he has. I do have a problem with the claim that games, movies etc are "responsible" for behavior

    I think we can agree on that nu?
     
  17. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    Go back and read the rest of the thread. You are just embarrassing yourself now.
     
  18. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    So? If you're going to be an informed participant, then read it. If not, it's unlikely that you'll be able to contribute much to the discussion. I've read the whole thread in the last few minutes, and written a response to a post or two. It's not difficult. Please don't go on about people needing to rationalize the issue when you can't even rationalize reading the whole thread?
     
  19. Hivemind187

    Hivemind187 What's a Dremel?

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    I cant believe I find myself agreeing with as republic *spit spit spit*
     
  20. DeX

    DeX Mube Codder

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    Great, trust me to make a typo in something that someone then quotes in their sig. Please add the of after freedom so my stupidity and hypocrisy (given what's in my sig) is not broadcast to the entire forum. :p
     
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