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1 in 10 US schools are 'dropout factories'

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Cthippo, 30 Oct 2007.

  1. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    Original story

    It's easy (as I'm sure amnay people are about to do) to blamne the teachers, or the students, or thye parents. Unfortunatly this is a systemic problem in the US and like almost every other problem no one seems to be willing or able to do much about it.

    I know for my own expierience High school was a complete waste of time. I got my equivelancy diploma in 10th grade and left. Never regretted it either. My sister is going through HS now and actually does about half her classes at the community college where they actually try to teach rather than just warehousing kids for 8 hours a day.
     
  2. Rocket733

    Rocket733 Austerity - It's the only way

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    Okay so how is this the fault of the US? We're supposed to provide an opportunity for an education, not go around making sure everyone in the US values an education as much as some people do? Personally I went to a high school where we had a 99.9% graduation rate, usually 1 or 2 people a grade might drop out, but even 1 was rare. The problem of education is a cultural one in quite a few areas that can't be solved from the outside, the community where the problem is must recognize it and address it. School spending per child in the US is the world leader (http://www.cnn.com/2003/EDUCATION/09/16/sprj.sch.education.compared.ap/). Why should a student be expected to be led through the education system hand-in-hand? Employers and colleges aren't going to be willing to take such an approach so why should highschools? Additionally looking further into the issue of the this article Mr. Balfanz works for a organization that depends on poorly performing schools for existence. While this article brings up some valid points hard data is awfully hard to come by (as noted by Deputy Secretary of Education Ray Simon http://www.ed.gov/news/pressreleases/2005/07/07132005.html). Without better data the statistics become much less meaningful. Further confusion of the statistics of education rates for high school students can be found in the following article which does a much better job of addressing the subject http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/book_grad_rates.
     
  3. Raiderfan001

    Raiderfan001 I know what a Dremel is.....

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    People are lazy....that pretty much sums it up.
     
  4. Amon

    Amon inch-perfect

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    A lot of finger-pointing over something that's hardly news, no matter what nation that statistic represents.
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Most affluent Western countries have the same problem. Big whoop.

    Give the kids some ineffectual parents and a materialistic lifestyle that fosters a sense of overentitlement, steep in a culture which worships vacuous celebrities rather than real achievers, and presto: underachievers and proud of it.

    Don't blame the schools, blame the parents who expect schools to raise their kids as well as educate them, but lend them no authority whatsoever and instill no values of hard work or achievement in their kids. Instead if little Johnny doesn't get good grades or is reprimanded for his misbehaviour, the teacher risks getting taken to task by the parents: "If you accuse our Johhny of being lazy or violent, I'll come and kick your head in --if I can be bothered to show up at parents' night".

    Asia and Eastern Europe, meanwhile, are laughing their heads off. Over there, a culture of hard work and achievement still exists. If they don't come over here to take do our jobs, they will soon outcompete us economically. The future isn't Orange, it's Mandarin.

    (and props to Rocket733 to come back with some solid, evidence-based argument).
     
  6. Stuey

    Stuey You will be defenestrated!

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    My words exactly! Well, my words if they were carefully and creatively articulated, but I can't be bothered to do all that now, can I.

    Seriously, education really is a huge problem here. In a lot of NYC schools, a good portion of students simply don't care as much about learning as they do about socializing.

    There are slews of problems. You have kids who are not brought up in healthy households, and thus they develop unhealthy attitudes. Everyone has a certain amount of potential, but by the time many kids reach HS, that potential's been shot out the window and then dragged beneath an inpenetrable grave. On the other hand, you have the self-entitled students, as Nexxo mentioned, who don't care to work a day in their life. They glide by HS and if they run the risk of failing, a phone call from mommy or daddy screws with the system even more.
     
  7. Mathmarauder

    Mathmarauder What's a Dremel?

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    School is what you make it. I saw so many people throughout my high school years that just did not pay attention or go to class ever. They simple treated school as a place to go other than home.
     
  8. boiled_elephant

    boiled_elephant Merom Celeron 4 lyfe

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    ...did this surprise anybody? :)

    Personally, I think parents need to stop shirking their responsibilities and subsequent failures by offloading them onto bandwagon issues like violent games, films, aggressive music, poor education standards and inadequate legal restraints. Kids are what you breed and raise them to be.
    If your kid is a little s**t with no self-control, you may be entitled to blame:
    A) The area you live in,
    B) The kids he/she hangs out with,
    C) Your parenting, or
    D) Your genes.

    C is the correct answer, but B is the more common one. It's a red herring I threw in there for irony's sake, because think about it...if every parent picks B, they're all blaming each other's parenting skills; if they pick A, C or D, they're blaming themselves.

    It's all the parents. Schools are bending over backwards to accomodate wayward, unwilling, disruptive children, but there's only so much they can do. It is not their job to raise children.
     
  9. Amon

    Amon inch-perfect

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    We shan't ignore tragic and traumatic events, beyond the control of anyone, as a possible influence. I'll give you one example: me.
     
  10. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    I'm not reading an article that long until I get home with my lovely text-to-speech, but this comment pretty much sums it up. I don't care if graduation isn't the norm, that doesn't stop you from staying in school. Don't want to become a dropout? Then don't drop out. I can't say I loved high school (though in hindsight, it was a lot better than the year of college I've taken so far), but I'd decided that I would rather not end up a hobo.
     
  11. Ramble

    Ramble Ginger Nut

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    Excellent, it means I will be worth more in the future.
    Keep up the good work.
     
  12. Bungle

    Bungle Rainbow Warrior

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    It's about time a law was passed so that no adult can get a job without achieving the minimum level of state education in the three Rs. Special circumstances would be taken into concideration, but the majority should not be allowed to leave the education system until they achieve a set standard. If needs be, make them re-sit the entire year. It's crazy that we have African children in REAL poverty that walk miles to school everyday to become educated and here in the west we have a affluent society that is allowing young adults to come out of education, with no real job prospects due to a failed education.
    One thing I've always advocated, is for schools to be more strongly tailored to teaching life lessons. Rather than teach whats the capital of XYZ country, maybe we should be more concerned, with teaching how to live on a budget, cooking healthy meals for yourself and parental studies.
     
  13. jfab199+

    jfab199+ What's a Dremel?

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    I think both the parents and the kids are responsible, a lot of parents need to start raising their children themselves instead of leaving them to the tv and the kids do need to value an education. It's amazing how many people complain that they aren't able to go to college, but you can always take loans from the government or find a scholarship or grant. I've known quite a few people that have a job, children and are full time students, it isn't easy but it is possible.

    Another problem is that it seems kids these days don't want to work for anything they just want it handed to them.
     
  14. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    I totally share your sentiment, but we really need to address the naming here, seeing that only one of the "three Rs" actually starts with "R". :rolleyes:

    Of course, if we were to do such a thing, you know that they'd keep lowering the standards until everyone passes. Capitalism at work, there. Make people pass a requirement to become part of the economy, and you'll see the qualifications to pass drop spectacularly.

    Having said that, just passing classes is a very poor benchmark. Not to sound totally cocky, but I'm pretty damn smart - but I'll still very likely have problems doing what I want to do (and am more than qualified to do) thanks to a lack of credentials. By and large, it would work for most situations since you want to see people with specialized educations in their field. Unfortunately for me, my intended field is something that's almost entirely learned by firsthand experience, so getting a formal education on the subject just to get the paper is largely a tremendous waste of time. There are some things that are best learned in school for what I want to do, but not a four-year programs worth (or even a two-year program).

    High school education is already trivially easy to attain, and really means very little. The fact that students still aren't making it is appalling.
     
  15. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Oh well. Someone has to take out my garbage :p

    As with most education, you get out what you put in.
     
  16. chrisb2e9

    chrisb2e9 Dont do that...

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    I agree, mostly. Praise be to Alberta where you can drop out of school and go out into the oil patch and after 2 or 3 years be making over 100k a year. Of course, when the oil patch crashes (and it will) these people will be alcoholics and crack addicts with no money, and no education. Praise be to Alberta.
     
  17. Rocket733

    Rocket733 Austerity - It's the only way

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    Like firehed mentioned that won't really solve the problem. Plus the way I see it if we don't produce enough domestic talent we'll have more than enough options for importing from abroad. I attend a fairly well respected business college and we draw students from all around the world who many times have a desire to work in the US. Who cares about the nationality of the person doing the job as long as they're the best for it. Noted of course that many don't share this same sentiment.

    Anyways while it would be nice for everyone to proactively engage in education to be a more productive member of society it simply isn't realistic with our culture and expectations, neither of which is going to change anytime soon.
     
  18. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    You know Nexxo; the term some of them are using is keeping it real and ****. Come to think off it; some of them actually do appear to view this as some kind of honourable achievement… :(

    On a more serious note.

    Our society has created these problems IMO. And in many ways these youngsters are therefore not to be blamed for what comes down to our own short comings, Just look at the brainwashed crap that the TV stations are broad casting 24/7 (to name one), it’s dumbing down our youngsters as it’s pacifying them (and us). In many respects it’s responsible for turning them into these intellectually hampered sleep walkers all to many of them have become, but It doesn’t make them stupid (far from it) but it makes them programmed with (what I) best would describe as a poison, a fair description I recon...



    ...It’s an ongoing battle (as I see it) and unless we change the course we are bound to loose this one. It makes me sick to my stomach as it makes me utterly sad to see all these youngsters with so much potential going down the drain. It’s our fault that so many of them live in the silly notion that achievement and the only way to show that you exist (is someone) is to be seen on TV, may it be working within the media sector or participating in one of those utterly disgraceful programs, which by they way; not only these youngsters are pasted in front each night. Take your pick on that one.


    Passing laws is no solution IMO, and besides; we already have way too many of them as it is today, what we need is to recognize the core of the problem and addressing it in the right end for a change (it's very much about attitude more than passing laws)


    Note: it's gone so far today that parents are recieving parental coaching...serioulsy now; if that's not a wake up call well.....



    All To many of us keep blaming these youngsters for being stupid, well; I don't think that any of us more "enlightened ones" really should (automatically) lable them as such....not all that prudent either IMHO.



    Finally...

    You know; minds are like parachutes they only function when they're open, and It's about time that the society (we) provided them with the tools. Heck, The tools that they have been given more resemble those of something that could have been taken out of a wall mart catalogue rather than taken out of a Kamaza ditto, to use an analogy.:nono:




    Cheers
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2007
  19. Bungle

    Bungle Rainbow Warrior

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    But it's not just about getting jobs etc. People who cannot read or Write properly, or even do basic maths, are wide open to exploitation. There are soo many instances in life, where having even a basic understanding maths and language skills, can save you money/time. Getting a mortgage, dealing with legal matters, checking your bank accounts are not being ripped off. We need a minimum level of education enforced. Ironically poor people need solid maths more than any other members of society as they will be working to a strict budget.
     
  20. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    As the wise man once said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Trying to force a kid or especially a teen to do anything is neigh on impossible. The other problem with that line of thinking is that it IS possible to live and work without these basic skills. I've worked lots of jobs that didn't require reading or math skills to succeed. Keep in mind these people are not stupid, just uneducated.

    I see a big part of the problem as being apathy on the part of the school staff. Apathy on the part of the students is almost a given, but a good teacher can, in many cases, motivate a student to want to learn and excell. The good teachers are the ones who go above and beyond, who are not just teachers but also act as surrogate parents, social workers and coach and friend. This is a lot to ask from someone making $23,000 a year, but these are the sort of people that it is going to take to make a difference.

    I believe in changing the things you can change, and hope that will be enough to overcome the things you can't change. By and large you can't change these student's home enviroment, you can't change what has come before. What can be changed is to provide staff who care about the students as individuals, and who are willing to go the extra mile to get them the help they need. Absolutly effort on the student's part is needed, but as it stands now in many places, even if a student is willing to make that effort no one is willing to help them.
     

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