Blogs Atheism in Dragon Age: Origins

I think the point is that they may be magical ashes instead of divine ashes.

 

morrigan is def an atheist. She even has a scripted chat with alister about how it's all made up nonsense. and a few times i got options to say something like "i dont believe in the maker"
to me - everytime religion came up in the game the religious chars just made religion seem useless.

 

Having thought about this some more, I've realised that - in general - games don't really "do" arguments in dialogue trees. What I mean is that your choices are rarely the equivalent of "I agree with you, because...", or "I disagree with you, and here's why...", or "I agree with your sentiment, but I disagree with your solution, because...". Instead, you're usually presented with a choice between "I agree with you because I'm being nice" or "I disagree with you because I'm a jerk".

The choices we actually get are undoubtedly there because they're much easier to write, and fall nicely into the standard good / bad morality structure of western RPGs. But how much more interesting would game dialogue be with real argument?

I'd like to hear people's suggestions for how this could work. I wouldn't expect developers to offer a completely open-ended argument structure, where the player can insert his own response and argument in detail; but perhaps the available options and arguments could be a function of the player character's stats. Perhaps players could be given the opportunity to respond positively or negatively, and then get to choose from a list of reason-types: eg. loyalty, sentiment, rationale, selfishness, etc., with a bias appearing over time based on your past choices.

Or, maybe - just maybe - I'm over-thinking this, and the answer is just that the developers should dedicate more time to thinking through and writing the arguments for and against every proposition the game gives you.

Ultimately, I'd love to play a game where I feel like my reasons for choosing are as important as the choice itself. I'd like the option of being an accidental hero - making the right choices for the wrong reasons; or the kindly fool - making the wrong choices but with the best intentions at heart.

 

thing I thought was funny.. mage went both ways in the brothel =E

 

The problem with Dragon Age is that while it's staggeringly well written it tends, in my experience, to be staggeringly well written if you're a good guy, ideally the human noble archetype, and ideally if you're a bit pious too. Whenever I tried to deviate from the path of shiny heroes with my characters, for instance trying to create evil characters, the game dialogue often felt like a really bad fit. By giving the player more freedom than for example Mass Effect 2 the writers left themselves unable to cover all the bases.

For all it's faults though Origins is probably still about three or four times better than Awakenings. Phew that was a stinker.

 

I dunno. I actually think you are misconstruing the nature of the storytelling paradigm of any sort of non-pnp rpg.

Put it another way: religious people aren't just theists, but theists with specific beliefs about the divine, what godhead is, what being human is. Playing a follower of the Chantry in Dragon Age is in no way enlightening; it doesn't tap into any religious feeling to speak of.

The game simply isn't about religious experience one way or the other.

Other comments about the context of the story are also important (ie, this ain't Second Life). And this gets to a fundamental rpg dilemma that you encounter in plenty of pnp games. Some players want to spend the whole time pretending, talking, acting as if they were their character. Most other players find a happy medium that usually works like this: comfortable talking in first person, but happy to discuss things in a sidebar, ask mechanics questions, etc.

And finally, this gets to the fundamentals of good storytelling. Does it make conceptual sense to have your hero be an atheist? To be honest, I was irked by how critical DA:O was of its own religion; while you couldn't be an atheist, it was pretty hard to see why anyone would be a believer. It felt like a pc sort of compromise between an honest approach to medieval religion (which would make an amazing backdrop for a game given how crazy and diverse it was) and wanting to adopt a more modern, skeptical approach to belief. It feels like the devs decided that they needed to put religion in, but none of them knew much about religion or particularly cared for it. So I guess my point here would really be that if you think DA:O fails to flesh out alternatives to its religion I'd suggest it also fails to flesh out the religion itself.

 

Thanks!

 

I think the original Neverwinter Nights did something of the sort, where you would get different or additional conversation options based on alignment, intelligence, wisdom and even strength and stealth.

 

i agree sometimes during conversations i get a little frustrated that my ideal response isnt there at all not just the religion based ones

however, regarding the conversing mechanics and decision making stuff it is probably the best game ive played

theres a central story and a certain amount of code and voice acting and paths they can fit in. i was surprised how open it was to be perfectly honest with you and its a mainstream game so i can understand why they err'd on the pc side.

making the most people happy whilest giving the most options taken into context i think they did a pretty good job hitting a solid middle ground and made it fun for everyone

im more aggrevated with the DLC/microtransactions they offer to be perfectly honest with you

 

The first Fallout games did that very well too. If you didn't have high enough perception, for example, you might not notice if someone was lying to you. If your Charisma was too low then some people would just flat out ignore you.

My favourite was that if you had an intelligence of 4/10 or lower then you'd be literally incapable of sensible communication. Whole portions of the game changed, so that you'd end up getting brand new quests as people tried to exploit/help you, while at the same time losing out on massive portions of the game. Major quests could just pass you by and your dialog choices would literally be reduced to grunts and basic words.

 

Dalish religion is animistic and Fade with its spirits is an animistic concept.

Morrigan is pragmatic, not an atheist and consindering her feelings about nature she seems to be pantheistic.

Monotheism and polytheism are only two religious concepts of many.

 

Most game developers I would daresay don't think of that though. Most aren't too concerned about making things a shade of gray, opting for a simplistic system of Black/White.

With that said, I can see why we'd want more complexity, but remember, not everyone is inclined to think.

 

Interesting read, Joe!

Religion seems to be something that a lot of games simply brush over, even if they're a pretty integral part of the game. Developers rarely consider just what they're really putting into their world.

I'm a big fan of the Warhammer universe because of its religions. All the different races and factions have their own Gods, but the trick is: they're all real. It adds a whole new level to the world and all of the related games. There's little claim that Khaine, for example, simply does not exist. Only that some embrace him, and some oppose him. It's a pretty different take on divinity in games which I enjoy.

Also, Joe, you might enjoy Demon's Souls. Some interesting shades of gray story elements in there. More interesting takes on religion and holy power vs. magical power under a different name.

 

I wonder what would happen if we could wipe peoples memories of Xianity and present it as "A religion with no original symbols/concepts which takes as its main rite the ritual cannabalistic ingestion of the crucified Messiah's flesh and drinking of his blood. The main symbol of this faith being an instrument to apply the death penalty. In addition the main figure died to "redeem" from an earlier error, but his people are still seen as flawed and in need of weekly confession and consumption of his flesh and blood.
Side beliefs include his mother being involuntarily impregnated by the some vague divine figure. (Messiahs mother was not defined until 451 years after the fact)

The list goes on and on, in any case, I doubt anyone would choose this pile of (insert your own expletive) on their own.

As to the main point, people in Medieval times were not allowed to be atheists, even people who didn't goto the local temple of evil were shunned or marginalized, bringing this into a game set in a fantasy medieval society with modern norms and such is problematical at best. There is already too much relativism and post-modernist dreck in PC games, I'd like to see more harshness (more severe deaths and hard decisions) rather than "make you feel good" junk.

That is all for now (if this actually gets posted, lol)

S*D

 

Excellent read as usual. That is one of the things i have pondered about with DA. Also, for one of the worst things they did was making you able to have relationships without giving any motivation to talk to your girl - meaning, that it very quickly came down to repeat one liners after the „fireplace fun”. Smost like the developers want the player to be a ****, because as soon as you talk someone into bed, there is nothing interesting left.

 

Actually, it was as bizarre, controversial and counter-intuitive to believe it in 33AD as it might seem today, and yet people were convinced and they did believe (not all of what you said, though, since much of that stems from later traditions of Roman Catholicism).

I think writing off faith as a product of simplistic and conformist minds does a great disservice to the depth of various religious traditions. It's very easy to see ourselves as having "outgrown" our past, but I think it's that very mindset that has led to such a shallow exploration of subjects such as religion in games thus far.

 

The Question I'd like to ask you Joe, is;

Why can you not delve into the fiction of being a believer in the maker? Is that really a design flaw on the teams part, or could you agree that you're limiting your experience of their designed gameworld with your choice to let your aetheist beliefs affect your immersion?

I quite easily submerge into the fantasy battles of killing people, but that goes totally against my real world beliefs, but I manage to suspend them long enough to enjoy the game

 

Should have taken the dwarf then they really dont belive or just always take Sten and Morigan they slap Prayer mumblers left right and center.
For those with the in game chars of the we believe type just remember although the chantry says the maker is watching he dosent believe in you. Although that said i did come back from the ultimate final death maker be praised or just an oversite in the programing me thinks.

 

I see what you're saying, but the game does offer an alternate explanation. Wynne, if you talk to her long enough, is pretty open minded about the possibility of Andraste being nothing more than a powerful mage, whose ashes still possess the power she held when she was alive. I believe this conversation is initiated after gifting her a controversial book that is banned by the Chantry that tackles this issue.

I do seem to remember having the option to tell people I don't believe in their religion in a non "screw you" way playing as my elves, but I couldn't recall a specific place for you.

I think another final aspect of this may be that the existence of an unknown power is practically a foregone conclusion. Your character goes to the fade, sees the power of andraste with his own eyes, talks to spirits and demons. It'd be like me responding to this blog post by saying "i don't believe in the internet." However, I did just remember that in the expansion pack, Awakening, you get a spirit in your part in the form of a possessed corpse who states that some spirits believe there is a life after the fade.

However, if you want to talk to a fellow skeptic, strike up conversations with Wynne. When you're in Ostagar you can find her near the Templars and the Circle doing a ritual. If you talk to her about the darkspawn she tells you she isn't sure of the story about the golden city and finds that the story may be more of an allegory about human corruption, etc.

I see what you're saying, and while the game may not provide too many options for your character to project skepticism without sounding like an a-hole, they did provide an outlet for exactly what you are talking about in the form of Wynne. Although if you want complete a-hole-ness about the religion of Ferelden talk to Sten.

Oh and I guess it's worth pointing out that ONLY the Fereldens and Orlesians worship Andraste in the way presented in-game. The Tevinter Imperium claims she was simply a mage who took advantage of them being weakened by the Darkspawn, and who knows what the other nations believe. It does seem, however, that at least most nations recognize The Maker as god.

 

But those examples are over the top & not like for like. I get what you're saying & I would disagree with Joe as far as to say it was a problem in the game. It's just a little limiting, but then, so are a great many things in a great many games. But I don't think it would be entirely out of place. Godless philosophy has existed since presocratic Greece in around 500-600 BC & before that even in Taoist China. It wasn't the majority belief, but it existed. And scientifically speaking those cultures were only in their early iron ages, a stage which the main cultures in Dragon Age are clearly past. Magic might augment or even replace science in certain aspects of their culture, but we know they have science. The Dwarven culture in fact is highly scientific. So, why not allow for the possibility of atheist or agnostic characters?