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WTF is this forum coming to? Awesome discussions on life, the universe & everything!

Discussion in 'Serious' started by StingLikeABee, 5 Mar 2012.

  1. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    [​IMG]

    *pictured is Oscar, BAFTA, Golden Globe winning, Emmy nominated, multimillionaire, Yale graduate Jodie Foster - A cautionary example of the perils of being raised by same-sex parents
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2012
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  2. IDS-IPS

    IDS-IPS What's a Dremel?

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    Just wanted to say, a church does not make a Christian, but Christians do make a Church.
     
  3. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Fan Fan

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    I see no reason why children of same sex parents can't be successful... but that wasn't my argument, sorry.

    And it doesn't surprise me that Jodie Foster might disagree - she had a tyrannical lesbian mother and is, unsurprisingly, a (somewhat confused) lesbian herself, and has two children whom she wants to give a childhood that "she didn't have herself."

    By the by, if you think that success and money are the hallmarks a person who cannot be majorly screwed up on the inside, you are woefully naive. Similarly, "Jodie Foster is a successful actress" is not a valid argument in support of same-sex parenting any more than homeless people constitute an argument against heterosexual parenting.
     
  4. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    What is better? To be raised at an orphanage or by homosexual parents?
     
  5. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    Ahh so what you're saying is that being raised by same-sex parents seriously screws kids up?
     
  6. SuicideNeil

    SuicideNeil What's a Dremel?

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    I didn't say at all that humans should copy animals, that is not the point. My point is that all animals can adopt unorthodox behaviour sometimes as it can prove to be beneficial. Moral objections base don outdated religious teachings are essentially invalid; the church does not run this country any more, keep your dogma to yourselves...

    Short memory, but then given all the terrible things the church has done over the years & continues to do, I can't say I'm surprised. I said 'a' society- whether it is to reinforce dominance over other males in a pride of lions, or providing a caring home for an unwanted child, the point still stands that gay parents can be just as successful or just as poor at raising a child as a straight couple. Everyone deserves a shot so long as they are deemed suitable candidates on fair basisisisisssiss.

    Wut? That makes no sense at all. Mocking people =/= burning them alive as a result ( or instead, depending on view point ). I think that would be a little over reaction in a civilised society, no?

    What about animals & insects that can change their gender; or reproduce A-sexually? What does it say in the bible about that being right or wrong? :hehe:

    Like I said, science has overtaken religion by so much that you are struggling to counter valid statements and arguments, instead you prefer to dismiss them on your own religious bias that cannot hope to provide a suitable basis for your viewpoint.

    If gay parents can be just as successful as straight parents, where is your objection, what is it based on other than your opinion and what you've been taught is right?

    Baring in mind most gay couples consist of the butch one and the girly one ( work with me on this... ), what exactly does a female bring to the equation that the gay couple can't, besides now-redundant reproductive organs?
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2012
  7. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Unrepentant Savage

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    The general idea I think that he is stating is that with two parents of the same gender, a child is not presented with the differing viewpoints of two genders in the same household, and especially if they are of the opposite gender of the parents, are deprived of the knowledge that a member of their own sex would have of their own experiences growing up. In that context, it becomes a valid statement. Empirically, given that statement, a homosexual couple raising a child is not only different, but could be construed as inferior. Why not ask a family friend to assist? Well, a lot of kids are more comfortable with their parents than with anyone else (as they should be.) It introduces unnecessary complexity and possible upset of the child/children in this instance.

    So then, should this be construed as that I am attacking homosexual couples raising children? No. For one, a single parent faces the same issues. Some of their children grow up to be just fine, and some grow up to be hellions-as do the children of the traditional family, or of extended family homes, as well. While the family unit is empirically diminished, there is a strong case for the concept of "who loves the child." Case in point, I was raised by my grandparents. It was not in my best interest to be raised by my father (as he was the surviving parent) and he understood so, and relinquished custody. I also happened to benefit from two stay-at-home parents. While I personally value the things that my grandmother had to teach me (and I gained excellent insight into what makes a Southern gentleman) I understand that if two people truly love a child, it covers for a world of ills.

    Also, as a minister, might I remind people that the Bible is meant to be a handbook on how you personally live-not a blunt instrument to attempt to beat others into submission. Christ himself spent most of his time in the company of "sinners," and normally didn't spend his time condemning them. He saved that for those who thought they were right with God. The religion of Christ is one of love for others, to the point of self-denial. Anything but places one firmly in the group that caused him to braid a whip and beat the money-changers and pharisees out of the Temple. If an action is proscribed by the Bible, is it your place or God's to remind them of sin? Does your approval or disapproval rank with God's or can you by your own action elevate a soul to heaven or snatch it down to hell? I cannot do these things-and I find the only way to ever convert those around me is to show the love that Christ Himself preached. If we spent our time attempting to do that, we might not be looked upon in such a bad light. An unfortunately deserved one.

    I've been absent because of health concerns (and they're not fully gone, yet.) I didn't show up to make a dig at homosexuals but to remind people of the pitfalls of self-righteousness.

    The power of the religion of Christ is love-up to and including the sacrifice of one's self for a sinner, one ritually unclean. If you can argue with all understanding, and your knowledge is as vast as the sea, but you don't do it from a spirit of love, your arguing is as the babbling of babies, and your knowledge as dry leaves in a thunderstorm. I find myself closer to the camp of Nexxo and their ilk. Having grown up in a nontraditional home, I have to say that my life was enriched by the fact that the people that raised me wanted me and treated me as if I was their priceless treasure. That they weren't my real mom and dad didn't matter. And I think if the parents feel that way about the child, it's not much of an issue who they are.

    Y'all can go back to arguing now.
     
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  8. IDS-IPS

    IDS-IPS What's a Dremel?

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    Beautiful.
     
  9. Elton

    Elton Officially a Whisky Nerd

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    This has certainly taken an interesting turn since the last time I was here.

    The question that pops into my mind though is this: Are we supposed to look at parenthood as something that fits OUR own ideals and morals? Or are we supposed to look at parenthood (and the parents) as a group that does well for our child.

    If it is the former, then it's clear that it's a subjective issue.

    However when speaking of benefit for the child. Should not the most fit parents (regardless of orientation) be the ones to raise the adopted(let's assume that seeing as homosexuals can't really make children) child rather than what "looks" good to us? After all are not parents held responsible for a child's development and behavior? Not to mention that in order to further the "society" if you will. One would need a kid raised well rather than a kid raised by people who "seem" right.

    Just my input. :)
     
  10. Scirocco

    Scirocco Boobs, I have them, you lose.

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    Strange, I see nothing there that says women having sex with other women, although it is laid out specifically for men. It says only "unnatural" relations. That encompasses a whole load of things wide open to interpretation.

    Main point for me is that Paul's letters are a book in the New Testament, an add-on. Jesus never said anything on point and neither does the Old Testament specifically mention it. You would think if this were such an "abomination unto the Lord" it would have a place either there or in the four Gospels. As I recall, overall Paul comes off as a women-hater who thought you should only have sex if necessary for procreation, and then not enjoy it either.

    The other thing is, most professed Christians I have met pick and choose which verses of the Bible to follow. As someone mentioned in the last couple of pages, do you eat pork and seafood, keep kosher, work on the Sabbath, only have sex with your wife during the two weeks between periods and after a ritual cleansing bath? It galls me to see this hypocrisy.

    For all the times Jesus exhorts his followers to love, I see little of it anywhere. KayinBlack has said it exactly. This is what I was taught: "They'll know we are Christians by our love." Even though I no longer consider myself a Christian, making love the imperative in one's life is the way I choose to live.
     
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It's not supported by scientific research, which shows that children raised by gay parents are as well-adjusted as children raised by heterosexual parents. Interestingly children raised by lesbian parents seem to have the edge.

    When you raise the (dubious) argument that something is "unnatural" you are, essentially, comparing it with nature. Well, in nature homosexual pairs raising offspring is a natural occurrence , and the offspring occasionally does even better by it than that raised by heterosexual couples.

    Now you can say that what is good for the gander(s) isn't good for the humans, but who can say what falls inside the range of our "natural" parenting? You'd have to do some anthropology. Read up about the Na (or Mosuo) in Yunnan, China, and the Sambia in New Guinea. It'll blow your mind.

    Basically the argument against homosexuality seems to cluster around two points: it's "unnatural", and it's "wrong" (somehow). To argue that it is "unnatural" is a bit self-contradictory, coming from someone who embraces a supernatural framework, but it is also not supported by science. To argue that it is "wrong" is a subjective moral judgement, and therefore essentially an arbitrary one. This is why the likes of Shishibukai try to argue that it is dysfunctional, but again, the science does not support this.
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2012
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  12. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Fan Fan

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    No that's not what I'm arguing at all - I'm just saying that having same-sex parents doesn't preclude you from having a successful career. Does that therefore constitute an argument that same-sex parenting is wholly beneficial to children? No, not in the least. I'm sure there are successful people out there who were sexually abused as kids... their success is not a justification of the sexual abuse they endured.

    To the untrained eye, yes. You are reading a translation of a Greek text, and my guess is you haven't studied New Testament Greek, so - no offence - when it comes to accurately interpreting the passage, you'd be my last choice. ;)

    You're still missing my point: I'm arguing simply that homosexual couples cannot reproduce and that that is what constitutes an inequality. When I say "natural" in the context of human reproduction, funnily enought I'm not talking about penguins or any other animals - I'm talking about human beings. Human beings naturally reproduce heterosexually. Period. There is no argument against that.

    Precisely - the natural way for humans to reproduce is heterosexually. I've already stated very VERY clearly that my stance on homosexual behaviour is a moral one, so there's absolutely no need to go down that road again - it's my opinion, which I'm quite happy to accept.

    We were discussing simply the equality of heterosexual and homosexual couples, and so far the strongest argument anybody has presented is this:

    "Homosexual couples are equal to heterosexual couples... as long as the heterosexual couples cannot reproduce naturally."

    Ergo, if the heterosexual couples can reproduce naturally, then they are not equal to homosexual couples. :wallbash:

    Let's not get caught up in ungainly asides and bickering about parenting - it's all opinion.
     
  13. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

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    I need to stop reading this forum!

    First up, this is an epic thread! It's showing how mature and intelligent so many bit-tech readers are... but also (IMHO) how a few have some growing up still to do.

    Disclaimer: I'm gay. I always have been and always will be. I don't think of myself as "gay" I just think of me as being... well me! I have a gf and we've been together for ten years, and we have 5yo twins. We're in every way a normal happy family... it's just that our family has two mums

    We have a society that says "Wanting to be intimate with" a person of the same gender is acceptable, but that that similar desires when directed at babies, children, animals and inanimate objects is not acceptable - and will be dealt with to a lesser or greater degree. I'm fine with all of this.

    We've drawn a line in the sand when it comes to how to define a child when it comes to "acceptable" intimate contact. At different times in our history, and in different parts of the world that line is not where we currently place it.

    Is a 15yo girl who has a 14yo boyfriend a pedophile? What about 15yo and 13yo? What about 16yo and 15yo? What about 17yo and 15yo? What if it's the boy who is older? When one drives and the other's still at school does that change it?

    A 15yo boy can fantasise about 15yo girls and it's okay. But a few months later he's got to stop thinking 15yo girls are cute? Really? That's what society expects of everyone?

    It's all so subjective.

    Anyone here think it's okay for a 30yo man to have a 15yo girlfriend? Probably not, but at 15 many girls are no different to how they will be at 18. But it's still a bit creepy right? But legally okay a day later on her birthday... we're strange!

    What about a 60yo man having a 45yo wife? Same age difference... still a bit creepy?

    We treat these child targeted desires all the same way. We've all heard stories (true?) of young kids being put on the sex offenders register for going too far at a young age, with someone close to their own age?

    Is that right? Is that fair?

    I feel the large issue with pedophilia is that it's rape. Either through coercion, pressure, influence... whatever. It's rape of a minor plain and simple.

    We've picked a number out of the air and said that's our line - nobody above the line is allowed to cross the lines. It's right we have a line... it's the only workable solution... but we've got to be realistic that young girls and guys can look back to the younger side of the line and have some thoughts...

    You can't cure pedophilia any more than you can cure homosexuality or the desire to get down and dirty with your Labrador. These are not equal desires at all, but if they are there then they are there... aversion therapy, hypnotism, religious mumbo-jumbo or the flying spaghetti monster won't cure them.

    So people should stop saying that homosexuality can be "cured" or changed. It can't.

    But maybe it can be ignored, and if someone is Bi then it may be possible to ignore it pretty effectively.

    What about the non acceptable desires? Can we change those? I say no more than we can change that someone is gay.

    So why do we keep letting the slime-balls out of jail to reoffend?
     
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  14. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    In terms of reproductive ability homosexual couples are unequal to (most) heterosexual couples. OK, I can agree with that.

    But that is on a very specific domain. Can you generalise that to inequality on human rights, marriage, adoption etc? I think not, unless you want to cast the sole function and reason for the existence of couples, the institution of marriage etc. in terms of human reproduction.
     
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  15. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

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    Might be something to do with all the hoops we have to jump through to get kids in the first place... let alone the expense. You can't even get IVF treatment before you've convinced the shrinks you'll be good parents.
     
  16. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Fan Fan

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    I'm in agreement with this insofar as people view homosexuality as some sort of disease - whilst my moral stance on homosexual behaviour differs from yours, I would never say that homosexual orientation is a "disorder" or something that requires a cure; like you say, it simply happens. My gay friend is also a Christian, like myself, and like me he believes that he should not act on his desires for a same-sex partner...but he accepts that these desires will be with him for the rest of his life. He's not looking for a cure; he's getting on with his life.

    I hope that nothing I've said has offended you and I want you to know that I have no disrespect for you or for what you do even though I may disagree with it. And thank you for posting - it's a breath of fresh air to see somebody state their opinion in a respectful and mature manner. :)
     
  17. Shirty

    Shirty W*nker! Super Moderator

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    Lenny, if you had discovered that you were in fact sexually attracted to other males in your early teens, how would you have reacted? Would you have repressed the feelings and gone on to lead an unfulfilled life, or would you have acted upon nature and lived a homosexual lifestyle (either with or without the knowledge of family/wider society)?

    Just interested, because I believe that your friend will lead a very unfortunate existence despite outwardly appearing to have accepted his decision.
     
  18. Tribble

    Tribble Steals Avatars

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    Yeah but what about the homosexuals that are in denial, pretend to be straight to their wives and girlfriends, their strict religious beliefs drive them to it or is it something else, in this day and age you wouldn't think it still happens but it does.

    saying that i'm on a dating site and a guy that was bi has just turn straight in his profile for me :naughty:

    In my profile i'm straight but am really bi :eyebrow:
     
  19. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Fan Fan

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    I was ;) I was exposed to pornography at a very young age and developed what I would call an unhealthy fixation with sex. In my early teens I was unable to identify specifically "what did it for me," and I was very confused about my sexual orientation. But the situation resolved itself; I was not forced or coerced into suppressing sexual attraction towards other males; the feelings just diminished over time and eventually disappeared. But I don't see why it makes a difference; if I had to accept that I was bisexual, it would be an extremely difficult existence for me but I would proceed with it nevertheless.

    And my friend does struggle - he really struggles - but he also accepts that the struggle is a legitimate one. As a Christian, he does not believe he will find true fulfillment in answering the call of his sexual appetite. Many heterosexual Christians who remain chaste feel exactly the same way. :thumb: Edit, your question about "fulfillment" presupposes that fulfillment does in fact come from acting on sexual desires; I would disagree with this. To say that "repressing" sexual desires precludes fulfillment is just one point of view, and is very much the mindset of society.

    And to further what I said to Guinevere, whilst I don't think there is a "cure" for homosexuality, it is patently clear that some people turn from being gay to being straight. I don't know how that happens or why it happens, but I would never say that it should always happen because it can. There is no argument from me when people object to the Christian (pseudo-biblical) belief that having homosexual feelings is wrong and needs a cure - I object to that also.
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2012
  20. Shirty

    Shirty W*nker! Super Moderator

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    Whilst I respect the right for Christians (or those practising any other religion) to repress their desires, I think that those who do this are missing out on the fullest life possible. I am defining fulfilment very much from the Aristotelian basis of pleasure being a fundament of eudaimonic well-being. Repressing sexual desires precludes sexual fulfilment, which in turn is a denial of our basic biology.

    Whilst it could be argued that following ones sexual desire might not be the most virtuous path to pleasure, it is ultimately what nature gave us as an incentive to reproduce.

    Besides, if Christians have it all wrong (and many would suggest they do ;)), then it's all going to seem like a wasted life when the afterlife turns out to be "a bit of a fib" and they just end up rotting in the ground like all other biological waste material.
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2012

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