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Scottish Independence

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Sviatoslav, 16 Oct 2012.

  1. walle

    walle Minimodder

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    As do the English, mind you. :)

    After all, two different countries with two different nationalities are being talked about here. One of which, seek independence from the Union.
     
    Last edited: 17 Oct 2012
  2. lysaer

    lysaer Suck my unit! Kirk lazarus (2008)

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    As long as we don't have to cover any of their welfare, prescriptions or anything else they currently have money for then sure let them be independent.


    Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 2
     
  3. Guest-16

    Guest-16 Guest

    Exactly. But, anywhere.

    British/ex-British colonial regions
    Other countries colonies
    Tibet
    Okinawa
    Eastern European countries
    African countries
    etcetc

    I've travelled quite a bit now and find that the old saying is true: you must walk a mile in someone else's shoes to begin to understand them. I will not assert my will or opinion on others state of living without having lived it myself.

    I've been here 2.5 years and I'm still digesting the state of Taiwan and Taiwanese. China is 'easy': the government tells you this, you believe or at least 'commit' to it or you end up in jail or branded a traitor.

    Yes and no. I mean, I live here, I have opinions about here, but I'm not sure when I will feel 'native' enough to feel comfortable with pushing my opinion. That maybe due to language, physical appearance, cultural difference and the fact politics are so polarizing and aggressive here though. It's not the same about an Englishman living in Scotland so much.
     
  4. blackerthanblack

    blackerthanblack Minimodder

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    Whisperwolf, totally agree with you on the Connery's and Hannah's the SNP wheel out to tell us what we should be doing, when they are happily living elsewhere. I only moved from Scotland to England this year because of my job and already I don't consider myself part of the decision. I had considered emigrating to Canada a couple of years ago and if I had I would been happy having a say in Canadian affairs rather than Scottish (though of course I would not forget my Scottish roots).

    On the EU I would think that as a 'new' country we will have to apply for EU membership as any other country would (adhere to entry rules etc.) and the EU would consider completely separately from the remaining UK. I think full fiscal control will not come in the short term, and maybe not at all.
     
  5. Sviatoslav

    Sviatoslav What's a Dremel?

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    It's called "self-determination" and is guaranteed/protected by the UN Charter. Unfortunately if you live in the country which is the member of the Security Council - you can forget about normal rules. If the UK was not in the SC there would be much more international pressure and opinions concerning Scottish independence
     
  6. Sviatoslav

    Sviatoslav What's a Dremel?

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    So you'd be ok with all the Poles, Indians, Turks, Russians, etc to vote? Especially if the are in Scotland only for 5-10 years to earn money? (can't prove that they are not). What about students? Say a PhD student who lived in Scotland for 5-6 years doing undergrad, etc... (+students don't pay income tax). Also, while Sean Connery might not pay his income tax, he's almost an icon of Scotland, he promotes Scotland around the world, etc, which is more than a Scottish every-day electrician does for his country :-/
     
  7. blackerthanblack

    blackerthanblack Minimodder

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    Firstly, if they pay their taxes here then they have a right to a say - it's up to them if they take it or not. If they only plan on being here a couple of years I suspect they won't be bothering to vote on anything here. Also, if they are paying taxes and living here you cannot say that they will not be here in 5-10 years, they may well want to settle here?

    For 'Sir Sean', promoting Scotland, and having a say in its' affairs are two entirely different things. He can have his opinion like anyone else can, of course. I promote Canada by drinking out of a mug with their flag on it, advertising it to all who see it. That doesn't give me the right to have a say in their politics. You may as well say that anyone who takes part in the making of a Scottish Tourist Board advert should try to tell the Scots which way to vote.
     
  8. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf What's a Dremel?

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    I have absolutely no problem with Poles, Indians, Turks, Russians, Martians and Venusians voting if they are here legally, which they have to be to, to be on a electoral roll and be able to vote. They will be here working, they will be paying income tax here, they will be shopping and spending here so they get a say in how the country works.
    It's also why I have no problem with the 16 and 17 year olds being able to vote, I think that if they are old enough to be paying taxes they are old enough to vote how it gets spent.
    Students may not pay income tax (actually a fair few will if they have evening weekend jobs etc and earn over approx £8k, they won't however be paying council tax) they will also be paying VAT and duty.
    Sean on the other hand cares so much about this country he's made sure that he doesn't spend any money here or contribute to the ongoing welfare of it. He's one of the "lets support socialism, so long as I don't have to pay for it" crowd. The everyday Scottish Electrician gets a say because he contributes to the running of the country and because he participates in that country. He' s doing more for here than the hypocritical tax exiles.
    You can't expect a countries decision to have any meaning when you artificially start excluding people because they weren’t born here, have a funny walk, look a bit weird, or whatever other reason we want to invent. Ideally the pro independence party would love it if only those true Scots who would vote for independence could vote but that would kinda negate the point of it being a democratic referendum
     
  9. David

    David μoʍ ɼouმ qᴉq λon ƨbԍuq ϝʁλᴉuმ ϝo ʁԍɑq ϝμᴉƨ

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    As a Scot, living in England, I think Salmond is a gobsh!te, despite being distantly related on my mother's side.

    He's been very effective at drumming up support, for anything that will go against Westminster, without appearing to be overtly anti-English. I sincerely hope that Scotland doesn't vote for independence, and I don't think it will. It seems to me that the people in favour are the extreme nationalist Scots, who are no better than the anything-but-Scotland idiot brigade in England.

    Making decisions based on xenophobe-like hate is always a mistake. I long for reasoned debate, devoid of all the Auld Enemy BS.
     
  10. The Toy

    The Toy The Ticking Time-Bomb

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    Then supply us with some!
     
  11. David

    David μoʍ ɼouმ qᴉq λon ƨbԍuq ϝʁλᴉuმ ϝo ʁԍɑq ϝμᴉƨ

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    There isn't any, yet. It's true that Scotland gets hind tit when it comes to dishing out revenue from the North Sea resources, and a larger share of that will make a huge difference. However, it's a finite resource and basing economic independence on dwindling reserves is suicidal. Especially considering Scotland's rate of public spending is much higher per capita than the union average, and set to increase with independence according to Salmond (as I understand it)

    He has already said he wants to keep sterling as the currency - so how does Scotland maintain economic independence and stay tied to the Pound? Who sets the interest rate?

    What about defence? The pot of money from the oil and gas will soon dwindle if Scotland has to buy it's own naval fleet and air force - which the government claims it will have to.

    I don't actually believe Salmond is really angling for independence, rather he is pushing it to end up with favourable concessions for Devo+.

    A single question referendum will address that point but, while Alec Salmond claims to be unconcerned about it, the majority of the nationalists seem dead against it.
     
  12. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    I think the issue of defense is a good one actually. If England/Wales/Northern Ireland withdrew their armed forces and left Scotland to deal by itself then how would Scotland afford much at all? Modern warships cost phenomenal amounts of money (over £1bn for a Type 45 destroyer), ditto planes and tanks. Would Scotland end up with a military based around a mere handful of frigates and patrol vessels, plus the odd infantry regiment?

    Scotland, by itself, certainly couldn't afford the cost of a shiny new aircraft carrier, or an Astute class submarine (or three). So would they then have to rely on the southerly neighbour to actually provide defensive capability and then have to pay for it?
     
  13. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Oh and the Shetland Islanders tend to be a lot less keen on it
     
  14. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    You don't need an army, Who's gonna invade Scotland anyway :hehe: There's a lot of places that would be effected. Elgin/Inverness for one.
    There always is water, you could sell that to your southerly neighbours I guess.
     
  15. David

    David μoʍ ɼouმ qᴉq λon ƨbԍuq ϝʁλᴉuმ ϝo ʁԍɑq ϝμᴉƨ

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    Yeah, it's not like it's strategically close to anything important to UK interests, is it? :eyebrow:
     
  16. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Ok, lets disarm the world.

    No seriously, every single nation has some kind of armed forces. Would Scotland want to participate in NATO? The UN?
     
  17. mucgoo

    mucgoo Minimodder

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    Ireland as a very small army as the most obvious model. 0.7% of its GDP.
     
  18. whisperwolf

    whisperwolf What's a Dremel?

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    its another amusing fact that the SNP raised hell when the Government was considering closing RAF Leuchars and Lossiemouth. Then it was the the English don't want to support the Scots and "wont someone think of the local economies". but the economies round the navel Trident bases that will be fine. and there's no mention currently of a Scottish airforce so will Independence kill off Lossiemouth as well as the already lost RAF Leuchars .
     
  19. Harlequin

    Harlequin Modder

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    wont happen.

    as is allways , the vocal minority shout the loudest - but the majority are the ones that vote;

    its allready been said that all the current freebies will go ; wonder how the scottish 18 year olds would react to having to pay to go to uni? and the oil - oh yes , should read about teh `plans` to move the flow to newcastle......


    devo max (which it poretty much is anyway) , independance but with a safety net; but lets be fairer - wales should head the same way as well.
     
  20. Er-El

    Er-El Minimodder

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    This thread needs a poll.
     

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