What does immigration have to do with respecting a beheaded soldier? OT: This kind of thing will happen while you have free immigration and security services that aren't permitted to detain everyone who might be cause for concern. On the basis that I (and hopefully most people) don't want to change that, we will have to put up with it. Organisations like the EDF/BNP etc do nothing but fuel the fires of hatred, but again, without serious curtailments of free speech etc we can do nothing but ignore them. There are crazies everywhere, unfortunately they creep out of the woodwork and do abhorrent things sometimes. Rather than getting hung up on their broader backgrounds we should be focussing on being adult enough to ignore them.
This really was a horrible event. My heart sank when I heard a solider had been killed in Woolwich since my partners brother is based there. I have no issues with people from different cultures or immigrants coming over here to seek work but based on recent events, I can agree with Liratheal about the Australian immigration policy. I have spent time in the middle east and have seen just how different and uncompatible our cultures are. Seems to me that the more we try to intregate our ways of life, the more conflict we see.
...Am I the only one to have been expecting more on liveleak by now... Regardless if he were a solider or not, he got singled out in a public area for wearing a "Help for Hero's" T-shirt. That's the bit that scares me most, it wasn't as if a police officer or uniformed member of the armed forces was singled out, but someone wearing a charity T-shirt ffs. Mere coincidence that he was a solider. The media's reaction and government classification of terrorism has been spark because he was a solider, but also the very very public nature of the incident.
I understand he had just left the Barrack so he was targetted for that reason rather than the t-shirt. And it is Terrorism not because of the media, but because the murderers intended it to be in their own words. Mind you the US governemnt won't class it as terrorism but only "senseless violence" because they want to pretend the only terrorist are the onese they hit with drones, not the ones that attack us or kill their diplomats.
I fail to see how these elements can't be relevant here. With regard to the religious part it's quite obvious that was his reasoning and he said as much. Whether this is his personal fruitcake interpretation or the view of Muslims as a whole is largely immaterial since; elements of the Muslim community have denounced these actions as not being 'in their name' (and on the whole I'm inclined to believe them, every Muslim I've ever met personally is the very soul of peace and understanding), but the fact that he uses it as his reasoning makes it a religious incident. As far as immigration goes it's really very simple - he wouldn't have been here. I am well aware that he himself was born in the UK but there's always that chance that his parents might not have gained access or, more relevantly (and cunningly linking to point one) the close-minded nutter who has clearly been filling his head with utter gibberish would definitely not have gained access so even if he had been here and converted to Islam, the chances are it would have been a real cleric without the extremist views. That's the real culprit here if you think about it, the murderous brain-washer who crammed so much western hate and propaganda into his head that he went out and perpetrated this atrocity. That was the previous thread opened by Porkins Wingman with what i can only assume was an attempt at a joke, a very very bad one. P.S. I've just realised I kept putting he/him/his when of course it should be them/their/etc.
Nutters beheading people isn't exactly uncommon. We seem to have a huge fascination with terrorism in this country when it really has a very minor impact on our lives.
I don't understand what you were trying to get at. Aside from a back handed bash of the United States. You've just lost all credibility. As far as I'm concerned this was a terrorist act. And having supported British soldiers(both as Active Duty Military and a Civilian) this really hit home for me. I was floored when I read the news. I know we've discussed topics similar to this in the past. But how crowded were the streets? Why didn't anyone try to help? I know Nexxo and others can chime in on this. And I understand the psychological road blocks for people. But why?!
a few people did try to help i believe, plus the fact the 2 had weapons including a pistol which would count as a pretty big psychological road block for anyone. Few people also said they thought the 2 men were trying to help the solider, took them a while to realize what was really going on.
Normal people living in a city are generally not combat prepared, nor are they residing in a wartorn country where cases of extreme violence are commonplace. I'm pretty sure if anyone was present they would fear for their own safety and for the safety of the people they were with as well as just generally being in shock and confused as to what was happening. People don't go out of their way and in the path of danger and I'm pretty certain I would be the same in that situation.
I think we are at risk of losing the woods for the trees. A terrorist act is a criminal act committed against the State or its representatives. The victim was targeted because he was the latter. So this is a terrorist act. Second, this was clearly the act of mentally ill people. It is not the first time that a person has been stabbed or beheaded (e.g. lady in Tenerife), or that religion was involved either as a motivating factor or as a rationale for selection of the victim (e.g. a priest). The perpetrator can be of any nationality. So in this case the perpetrators were mentally unhinged, Black, embraced radical Islam and picked on a soldier for religious-political reasons. That does not mean that suddenly we have a problem with immigration, Islam or a combination thereof. Not more than we have with, say, White British people who have a beef with Christianity.
Which like being hit by lightning, is statically very unlikely. In fact you stand a better chance of being hit by lighting. Terrorism works because you don't internalize the danger daily. Crossing the street, driving a car are both very much more dangerous and you aren't paralyzed by them. Don't be a *****, grow a pair and live your life. If you start to parrot that FUD, then you let them win. also, what Nexxo said
RIP Fusilier Lee Rigby, Condolences to all close to him. I find it hard to believe some people here are trying to sideline this as a lunatic incident when the perp clearly states what his motives are, and a witness clearly states how enraged under their own steam they were. The writing was on the wall regardless what flavor of news media sheep food you chose to eat. Stop with this "trying to hide the fact" we have a positive ****ing issue with Islamic extremism which has been ignored and left to fester for 15 odd years, resulting in medieval slaughter on our streets. Immigration on an uncontrolled scale may well have had something to do with, So don't write that off al la knee jerk. Racism has sweet **** all to do with religion, White people have Islamic faith too. So stop (or don't go) with the "race card" ********, Too easy to say it with no prior knowledge required as to what the damn word means. If you give any type of extremism a chance to flourish, It will. Every single time. Left, Right or plain old religious. Some liberal folks can't seem to get that through their thick skulls but persist in giving these extremists of all flavours a free reign in doing and saying whatever the **** they like (at the taxpayers expense of course) And then to shoot down anyone who questions them!!!!! Who be the fascists here, I mean really! Look up Fascism FFS. Here is our situation. This...... mixed with this... Leads to this.... Lead to this....... Leads to this....... In turn, leads to this..... And back to this.... This will not end here, I fear this is the tipping point and lines will be drawn politically and socially. The people who got us here have no sympathy from me. All as bad as each other IMO.
There are about 700 murders a year in the UK, of which 270 are stabbings. Not so long ago, a man killed a priest, an older woman and broke into a couple's house which he vandalized. When the couple returned they found a note stating that if he had found them at home, he would have killed them too, the "Christian scum". Do we now have a problem with atheism in the UK? The fact is that of all the hundreds of angry people shown in the photos above, only one committed this one exceptional act of violence. You have to ask yourself what makes him that special little flower. And I argue that he had mental health issues, which expressed themselves in this violent act. The religious political backdrop is just a modulator, not a moderator (i.e. shapes how this act is expressed, rather than making it more or less likely). To blame this act on Islamism in the UK, and Islamism on immigration is superficial and uninsightful reasoning and, dare I say it, somewhat extremist. Just because a mentally disturbed person rationalises his actions in a certain way does not mean that he has insight into his own behaviour. Even quite sane people do not always know why they do what they do; they just think that they do. Just as you are complaining about extremism but are showing somewhat extremist reasoning yourself. We did not have a problem with Islam in the UK before the US and UK decided to stomp all over the Middle East in Bush' War on Terror™ which, incidentally started about 12 years ago, so draw your own chronological connections. Perhaps foreign policy needs a bit more scrutiny than immigration policy.
Nexxo's bang on. A large slice of perspective is required here. There's a man in Wales about to get convicted for the death of a 5 year old girl, who cremated the body on his fireplace (quite possibly to cover up a sexual assault on his infant victim), and is probably not a muslim. Rigby was a soldier in the armed forces of a nation that has been at 'war on terror/extremism' for ten years. Which death of these two is the harder to rationalise?
Just another nut job using religion as an excuse to kill. Probably mentally ill. I guess we do what we always do when somebody commits ANY crime, foot the bill for his/her living cost for the next 40 years. I will go out on a limb and say they won't last long in prison.
Damn right. As is the BBC having the first 13 stories on it's news website devoted to this! Not just the top article. Or the top two or three. The first thirteen featured or linked stories on the news homepage are all about how two disturbed 'extremists' wanted their murderous act to be a public talking point. Does any single murder in this country deserve to be treated like this? Those two angry murderous men wanted to create a media event and guess what? The media in this country has given into them 100%. I'm not saying the story shouldn't be reported (It mostly certainly should!) but allowing that killer a soap box to stand on, blood on his hands and weapon in hand.... That should not have happened. It is exactly what he wanted. We need a free press, but they have to have some responsibility for their actions and not just be focussed on ratings and 'giving the public more of what they seem to like'.
Agree with you completely Nexxo. Given the context of the killing and the reactions therefore, I feel the following quote has important relevance: An important challenge for anyone interested in justice.
Agreed 100% with this. The whole point of terrorism is to spread terror (hint: it's in the name). The way that the media has covered this is utterly irresponsible and at worst, may encourage other deranged people to do copycat killings. Although, one the flip side, if the media did nothing, it would be over to social media for the information to get around - which would mean conjecture and hyperbole. At least the media has some of the facts - for instance, according to twitter, there were a full tweets the other nights implying a full scale riot. In reality, it appears it was a small EDL (Defence League, not Disco Lovers) gathering...
