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Killing in Woolwich

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Snips, 23 May 2013.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Oh, hai. Welcome to war (you mean, as opposed to wars being fought by moderate, open-minded people who can see the other side's point of view and have a balanced and fair appraisal of events? Sorry, that would be the lefty, soft, pacifist liberals. :p You really have to start thinking these things through).
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
  2. woody_294

    woody_294 Wizard Ninja :P

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    Yes, they were and are, sorry for booing your shouldn't be in Afghanistan notion, and the ones that weren't friendly were about to lose their jobs. Although they ended up losing them anyway, after we finally figured out what was going on.

    *edit* it would be interesting to know where you got your information about the war lords and the Taliban from
     
  3. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

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    I thought that wasn't the case? Didn't someone say it and it caught on but in reality they just hack at the poor bloke far to many times? If im wrong then i dont see how that makes them mentally unstable, Chopping heads off as a punishment is hardly new and when it was being done it wasn't considered insane either.

    Crazy beliefs are crazy when taken seriously....
    Calling them extremists is sidestepping the issue, Their religion (and others) permit and praise this kind of behavior. Islam being the worse at the moment as it is a relatively young religion and is going through its bloody phase.
    Being extreme about and taking your own beliefs seriously isn't necessarily a problem, just depends what they are.

    Do you believe Rev. Phelps and his entire flock to be mentally unstable?

    Just a quick question to the blame the immigrants crowd whats your reasoning behind blaming immigration? I have yet to hear a good argument for that one.
     
  4. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I think that in order to understand the relationship between Afghan war lords and the Taliban we would need to explore the history of Afghanistan since the Soviet invasion. Many war lords were veterans of that war. Meanwhile the US subsidised the founding of fundamentalist Madrassa in Afghanistan and Pakistan to create the next generation of Jihadists to make life difficult for the Soviets. Some of those are veterans of that war too.

    After the Soviets left, the country was left to sort itself out. The war lords were generally unpleasant people to live under, taxing the population and fighting amongst themselves (with the suffering population caught in the crossfire). The people were only too ready to turn to the emerging Taliban who promised to restore order. The West was very happy for that to happen too, because war lords, through their opium fields, were a main source of heroin for the West, and anyway you cannot build and maintain gas pipeline through Afghanistan (from the now Glasnostified, deconstructed former USSR) if it runs through a civil war battlefield. So the US thought: there's going to be Sharia law, but there's going to be stability. we can live with that.

    In the 90's the Taliban were our friends. They even visited Texas to talk oil deals. It is not until Osama soured the relationship by pulling 9/11 and hiding in Afghanistan, thus forcing the Taliban to choose between a Muslim fundie brother and continued diplomatic relations with the West, that things went South. The Taliban refused to kick Osama out (partly because they honestly had no clue where he was) and Bush decided to invade. After a while of stomping around Bush declared that "Osama isn't a priority right now" and left everybody mightily confused as to why we were there. But it was too late to pull out by then...

    TL;DR: war lords don't get on with terrorist organisations. They don't get on with the Taliban. They don't even get on with each other. They don't get on with anybody but themselves.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    A lot of things that aren't considered crazy by some are, in fact, crazy. See your comment below.

    Yes, I think that they all have a raving personality disorder.

    I don't blame immigration, so I'd like to hear a good argument for that one myself.
     
  6. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

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    Yet when they escape that environment and/or belief they turn into a normal, productive member of society?

    I don't see how you can consider people crazy when 'sometimes' their only crime is being brought up in a very religious environment.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Think of it as a cult. The founders have personality disorders (usually a result of their childhood experiences), who have constructed a self-reinforcing world view aimed at bolstering their fragile ego. They in turn raise their children within that worldview. Depending on temperament, they may develop similar personality disorders and continue the cult. It is not a crime to be brought up in a dysfunctional environment (although it may be a crime to raise your child in one), but it can make you go crazy. Occasionally (as has also happened in the Phelps family) they may at some point (usually in their teenage years) start to differentiate, sense that the environment and it beliefs are crazy and eventually seek to escape the cult. This is an act of great personal courage --it is abandoning everything you know with nothing but your inner conviction to hold you. Even a positive change involves a sense of loss.

    Of course other people with their own personality disorders may be attracted to the ideology of a cult and join it (again, this has also happened with the Phelps family).

    What I'm basically saying is that people, for lots of complex reasons, can be predisposed to going crazy. In a functional environment that can be mitigated while in the right (wrong) dysfunctional environments that predisposition is able to manifest and actualise.

    However functionality is robust (that's what makes it functional). It is possible for functional people to stay functional and raise functional children in great adversity and in dysfunctional cultures. So many Muslims (and Christians) grow up in a fairly fundamentalist culture but are basically decent human beings when it comes down to daily life. Many people, when confronted with an ethical dilemma, will do the decent human thing regardless of ideology.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
  8. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    I think more than one witness described the killers as looking like they were on drugs, for what it's worth...
     
  9. nukeman8

    nukeman8 What's a Dremel?

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    We wouldn't seek it but what if we was brought up in it? How far would you need to be pushed to kill someone if you was repeatably told its a good thing to do, while hardly anyone was criticizing what you was being told?

    Thou if i remember correctly this beheading happy person wasn't raised as a Muslim but converted so i see where your coming from. Being crazy certainly helps when it comes to doing crazy stuff.

    *edit - what gets me is how they can say things like "In our land our women have to see the same."
    Bloody idiot, your in your own land. By the looks of them they were both raised here, how on earth can they consider a country so foreign to them their homeland.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
  10. woody_294

    woody_294 Wizard Ninja :P

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    nexxo, your argument against is purely from academic study of the situation and I won't dispute those points, I honestly believe that life has improved for Afghanis and we, the west, have benefited from the resolution in a big way, least of all the surrounding countries having the offended on their doorstep and being forced to deal with problems that weren't their immediate concern.

    Edit, I totally agree that the guy has to have been broken in the first place, and found someone who told him it was ok to do what he did, a lot of suicide bombers are trained up because they have learning difficulties or some other disorder that means they wouldn't be useful elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    People can be driven crazy by their upbringing. In fact most crazy people are.

    Now you dismiss the opinion of experts who know a lot more than you or I about the situation, and fall back on your personal beliefs. You are free to believe what you want of course, but it is not a rational argument supported by facts.
     
  12. Teelzebub

    Teelzebub Up yours GOD,Whats best served cold

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    Yea right must be the drugs complete BS, next it will be the violent video games :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013
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  13. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    or setting off bombs at marathons, plotting to cause explosions, blowing up trains, nightclubs. Yes, quite a few. Saying this incident is isolated because of the nature of the attack from others committed in the same cause (as identified by the perpetrators in their own words) is pretty silly, isn't it.

    And you are deliberately trying to avoid the issue by defining religiously inspired acts of violence as clinical insanity and thereby trying to imply that the religious beliefs of the terrorists is somehow not to be considered.

    Indeed I do separate those that just preach intolerance from those that preach that terrorist acts will lead to martyrdom and a direct ticket to paradise. Both are obnoxious, but one is dramatically more dangerous to others. I in no way put the blame for these acts on Muslims in general, or even "Fundamentalist Muslims" but on those that advocate, justify or excuse these actions. They are out there and no too hard to find.

    Just because and act is evil (if you accept the term) and stupid, doesn't make the perpetrator insane. It is rational and justified by the interpretation of the Islamic faith he subscribes to where you can justify the killing of much of the world’s population for an assortment of reasons such as being Jewish, or American, or Spanish, or Hindu or gay or Buddhist or in particular the wrong sort of Muslim. Now to prevent misinterpretation, deliberate or otherwise I will restate that I do not think the fact that his form of Islam reflects anything at all on those in the mainstream of the faith who would probably condemn these beliefs in language far stronger than I would use.

    But to deny that there is a set of religious beliefs in common between these killers and other Al-Queda groups or Al-Queda inspired groups is very strange.

    It is not reading the Koran that turns you into a murderer. It is being taught, or persuaded that the Koran justifies or requires these acts of violence. And there are plenty of preachers out there that will try to do this.

    It wasn't just an ideology, there was an organisation, Al-Queda, that was based in Afghanistan and organised the attacks. Bin Laden was a Saudi, but had long been expelled. His group was largely Arab I believe, but not specifically Saudi. The passports of the attackers were not the issue, the location of the organisers was. There was an organisation based there with well stated views and on 9/11 they proved that they were able to take action on them. The Taleban government of the country were allied to them and were not willing to put them out of business so a number of countries took action to change the situation on the ground. You will no doubt remember that the action was not the US alone or even US and UK alone but diverse countries such Norway and New Zealand made important military commitments.

    If you are proposing a counterfactual, please explain what alternative to the action in Afghanistan you would have chosen. And if the physical structure of the Al-Queda organisation had not been attacked do think the number and size of subsequent attack would have been more or less?

    I think these were the acts of misguided idiots and certainly do not exclude the idea that they may have mental health issues. But you could say that a murderous gangster was psychotic and but this doesn't mean that when he commits violence it isn’t because he rationally knows that the act of violence will being him financial gain. It may make us feel safer to think all we need to deal with this is better mental health care, but I don't think that is the case.

    There is a strand of belief that justifies these acts. The people that hold that belief think that they are holding true to Islam and other Muslims are wrong (or worse). That doesn't imply any guilt to other Muslims (or have anything to do with immigration). But to confront a problem you have to know what it is and I think it is the political/religious views of the terrorists.
     
  14. woody_294

    woody_294 Wizard Ninja :P

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    And you, nexxo, have probably had sod all conversations with Afghanis from either side and are happy to report on other people's opinions as facts. I knew there was a reason I avoided these threads.
     
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  15. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Yes if he wants to terrify someone or people in general.



    With all the 40 members of his church mostly related to him. Foul people but they haven';t tried to kill anyone near me recently.



    No alas the problem is Islamic inspired terrorism. Glasgow v Celtic might well be unpleasant but it doesn't seem to endanger the rest of the world. And I don't think that my intolerance of the terrorist's violent action is a problem.


    I agree and I am glad the the police were able to secure the situation without killing them. Furthermore the absence of the death penalty is a particularly good thing in dealing with these cases.
     
  16. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    ********,
    That's not what the woman who intervened has went on the record saying, You know the one who had the braun to intervene and try to get these idiots to calm down.
    She said they appeared sober but very angry.
    She maintained eye contact to build trust, The woman knew her stuff.
    Practicing Muslim's don't take drugs, Respect is due there.


    BTW Nexxo,
    Maybe you should be the murderer's lawyer, After all you have already diagnosed them as mentally unstable, Maybe even be judge and jury?
    I'm sure that could be just as insulting to Islam as Lee Rigby being a soldier has been.
    That attitude is bound to cause some friction, Surely you understand that.

    I will accept that these men more than likely were groomed by Mr Choudry, the extremist racist fanatic who has been allowed to ply his hatred of Britain and British law on British streets, with support from other extremist types.
    The prosperity of internet footage provides plenty of evidence.
    I'm sure were going to see a lot more evidence coming forward in the next few weeks, He is a former professional so I expect him to be as "teflon" as our current range of politicians, cowards and paedos that pollute the headlines.
    I for one want to see him stripped of his credibility and face by the Muslim Council.

    I will not accept these two murdering a-holes getting off lightly by some panel that is afraid to deal justice for fear of offending ANY religion or excusing them as being mentally insane.

    If the tables were turned and Lee Rigby was the accused, And "that man" was the victim, I'm sure some would have no thought or excuses beyond the fact he would have been a cold calculating murdering racist and should be locked up and forgotten.


    Did anyone find out any more on why the RAF were playing "Typhoon tally ho" with that Pakistani Airlines jet over the UK skies today?
    Its flightpath looked like spaghetti on Flightradar24
    Last I heard the plane was brought into Stanstead crisis ramp.
     
  17. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    I would highly recommend this piece Why are young British men like my brother drawn to Islamic extremism? by the step-brother of Richard Dart who was recently convicted of preparing to commit terrorist acts and was in the circle of Choudary.

    You have to ask yourself if the problem is that some young men have mental health issues or if the problem is the people that convince them that the answer to their problems is in violence.
     
  18. longweight

    longweight Possibly Longbeard.

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    Complete bull****. Post a source.
     
  19. Kovoet

    Kovoet What's a Dremel?

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    Not drugs it was a lust for killing
     
  20. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    If you add all these perpetrators together, you still get a tiny minority. So obviously there is something more going on than just a fundamentalist belief system.

    No, I'm saying that these beliefs are modulators, not moderators.

    Again, woods, trees. I do not think that I denied any commonality of beliefs. Al-Quadra terrorists also have mental health issues.

    Yes. They're the Islamist version of Rev. Phelps: people with personality disorders. And they find fertile ground in other people with similar personality disorders.

    Now you are saying: "What else could we have done?". That does not justify a badly thought out operation that made matters worse. We should have been concentrating on winning the population's hearts and minds rather than just fighting the bad guys. You cannot kill an idea (or ideology), but you can change people's feelings towards it.

    Functional people do not become criminals.

    I disagree that it is as simple as that. There has to be something about the person that they gravitate to extremist beliefs. Understand that, and you can stop the attraction. Again, you can't kill an idea, but you can change people's feelings towards it.

    Now you are just sulking.

    Is it rational and sane to want to terrify people in general?

    The (euphemistically named) 'troubles' in Nothern Ireland caused the deaths of innocents there as well as in the UK.

    Nobody said that your intolerance of terrorists' violent actions is a problem. It is in fact a very sane attitude. But I think that your attributions are simplistic and flawed.

    Sorry, more rhetoric.

    And I'm not sure that to argue that these terrorists' actions are due to mental illness rather than their Muslim faith is insulting to Islam. Quite the contrary.

    You need to take a step back for a moment and ask yourself: what is it that makes someone think of fundamentalist Islam as a good idea? What is it that makes the belief that you can kill a random non-Muslim in a horrible manner a rational, even attractive one? it is not the ideology in itself that is the problem; it is what makes that ideology attractive and rational in some people's eyes that is the problem. How come that you and I, and indeed many Muslims can listen to Choudry's or extremist Imams' rhetoric and dismiss it as mad extremist rantings, while some people can listen to it and think it's a really good idea, that makes perfect sense?

    What is it about those people? You're not asking yourself that question. You're getting too fixed on the ideology, not enough on understanding* the people.

    * Before we get into that argument; understanding does not mean empathising or condoning; it means having an insight into how these people function.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2013

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