1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Where theists go wrong...

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Boscoe, 10 Jul 2013.

  1. Tyinsar

    Tyinsar 6 screens 1 card since Nov 17 2007

    Joined:
    26 Jul 2006
    Posts:
    2,287
    Likes Received:
    28
    There are no mature adults on this planet that don't have some strongly held beliefs and disbeliefs they start their careers with. Complete objectivity is rare even in rational beings (We all have views we favour and views that repulse us). It is even rarer in any emotional beings I have ever met.
     
  2. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

    Joined:
    30 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    9,648
    Likes Received:
    388
    And just like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, when we use the information available to us we come to the conclusion that those beliefs no longer hold true.
     
  3. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,731
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    That is not exactly the same process. Scientific hypotheses are tested for their replicability and predictability. Faith is tested for its meaningfulness. One is objective, the other subjective.

    Not beliefs --proven theory. When you come up with a theory that totally contradicts a whole framework of already proven theories, you better show some compelling evidence. Occasionally that happens and there is a lot of re-writing of scientific knowledge.

    Apart from that, although science as a discipline is based in sound principle, I'm sure that scientists are subject to the same weaknesses and fallibilities as any other human being. There are careers built on theories, as well as egos and reputations. And when non-scientists, such as funders, politicians, the media and Joe Public get involved, well... there is a lot of non-scientific thinking muddying the waters.

    That is true, except that science is not a belief system. It's a method of constructing models of the physical universe that allow us to make replicable predictions and interventions in that physical realm. It is important to keep in mind that you are talking about two completely different things here.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jul 2013
  4. Shichibukai

    Shichibukai Resident Nitpicker

    Joined:
    29 Sep 2009
    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    4
    To fulfil the law means to live perfectly under it in adherence with all of its rules, which is/was absolutely impossible for any man but Jesus to do.

    If fulfilling the law meant what you're implying, why didn't Jesus stone this woman?

    To clear things up, I'll try to keep is as simple as possible, I'll most likely edit this afterwards as I think of better ways to explain and relate it.

    Salvation/accepting Jesus as it's preached today has been relegated to just simply an heaven and hell deal. That is the most important part, but not the entirety of it, if you went to the old testament to read the law, you would see it affects all areas of your life and it's the same with salvation.

    This limit is largely due to a misinterpretation of John 3:16

    Eternal life =/= living forever. Our spirits will all live for eternity, just a question of where.

    John 17:3 defines eternal life

    Jesus came that we can have a relationship and fellowship with God and Him. Not the way you may say you know your next door neighbour. It's more the way a man knows his wife. And with knowing God comes all the benefits of that that can be summed up in the biblical usage of the Greek word Sozo. This word carries with it the meaning of "wholeness" - lacking nothing spiritually, physically or financially.

    The way the Gospel (which is supposed to be too good to be true news) has been preached is, turn to God or go to hell. Telling someone they're going to suffer for eternity is not good news, it's part of the message but should not be made the totality of it. Most if not all people already know of the wrath of God, but it is the goodness of God that leads people to Him.

    To just keep it simple this post will focus just on the heaven hell part of salvation though, but remember it's not limited to that.

    Under the law as described in the Old Testament, you were given numerous laws to be "righteous" - as described in the Bible before God, or simply in right standing with Him. For e.g. go above the speed limit you're no longer in right standing with the government (which put in place the law) and you get fined.

    In Deuteronomy, you see the results that will come from breaking or following God's laws, follow them and you're blessed, break them and you're cursed. As said before it was and still is impossible for anyone to live a flawless life according to the law. So when someone broke a law, they were either punished or atonement was made through the sacrifice of an animal of some kind, depending on the case.

    The principle behind this is: The wages of sin is death. And sin cannot go unpunished otherwise God wouldn't be just e.g. picture a judge that lets some criminals go and others receive sentencing. But sin can be paid for by another, in place of the person on trial, e.g. someone coming into court and paying your speeding ticket fine.

    The Bible states "The life of the flesh is in the blood" so under the law, the life of animals was used to pay the wage of death that was deserved by the sinner. Under the law sins were only covered and not forgiven - painting over a stain instead of truly cleansing it.

    Therefore Jesus came and did what no man could do, which was live under the law perfectly and died in our place, to pay the price for our sins. He paid the price for all sins past, present and future - but to receive the benefit of that we have to "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

    The heart is not your physical organ, but the inner part of our soul - the part of you, that you use to love, hate & believe etc - I lack words to accurately explain it at the moment, so I'll just make it relative in that way.

    Jesus came, fulfilled the law, paid the price for our sins on the cross, went to hell and rose from the dead to prove that He conquered death for us. Now that Jesus has done this, no one has to try to follow the law to be right with God, we are made righteous through Jesus: and the Bible is not teaching that we modern day Christians are to stone disobedient children, adulterous people and homosexuals. God hates the sin; he doesn't hate the person and in fact will accept anyone who comes to Him.

    So there is no one who has sinned too much to be accepted by God.

    No one is going to heaven and hell depending on whether they've sinned or not, but rather whether they've accepted Jesus or not - so Jesus is your ticket to get on the train. But beyond that, if someone has rejected Christ then the will be judged according to their sins - varying degrees of punishment indicated numerous places in the Bible.

    The same applies for the person who accepts Jesus. Jesus gets you on the train but what you did in your life after getting saved (fulfilling God's will for your life) depends on where you sit on the train.

    I should be around more frequently to answer reasonable questions. I say reasonable because some questions aren't tangents and completely miss the circle and I could spend hours explaining it using the Bible and you probably still won't get it.

    The Bible is a spiritual book written to your heart, not your head. That's not to say it's completely devoid of logic, there is lots of logic in there, but most of the answers to questions that most people are seeking, e.g. the existence of God are things that must be revealed to a person's heart otherwise, the entire idea appears to be foolishness.

    Sincerely pray "God if you exist, reveal yourself to me" and read the Bible sincerely looking for the truth if it's there. I believe He will reveal Himself; it may be through you reading the Bible itself or true someone explaining it to you. He won't force you to believe so even if He reveals Himself you can reject Him.

    And for those wondering about Matther 10:33-36

    There's lots of evidence, near death experiences, miracles, healings, prophecies that couldn't be mere guesses etc. Google would cough up a lot more if you take the time to look for yourself.
     
  5. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,731
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    Shouldn't Christians be judging them either, then? People can be stoned to death by words and attitudes, too.

    The truly faithful do not seek evidence.
     
  6. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    If they did, they wouldn't be faithful.
     
  7. aramil

    aramil One does not simply upgrade Forums

    Joined:
    10 Jul 2012
    Posts:
    961
    Likes Received:
    58
    I think therefore I am.

    The choices and decisions I make are mine, as are the consequences of those actions & decisions.

    I know that if I plug in my kettle fill it with water and turn it on the water will boil.

    I know that somewhere someone it transforming a stored energy state into electricity and sending it out through power lines to my home so I can have a cup of tea :D . Simple science that we all agree works.

    I know that if I was to go outside and start shooting every person I met, I would more than likely be shot by the police. Because evil begets evil.

    Science explains how. Religion in my view has some very simple rules that if we all followed (ie be nice and considerate to each other) we would all be better off. The rest tends to be someones interpretation of....

    As for God (he/she/it/them) one day I will find out, or not (we all die at some point). But really what else is there to do.

    Get on with enjoying your life and enriching others.
     
  8. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    It also has some strange and not so nice rules. The basis for which of the rules are followed from any holy text do not come from the holy texts but from the people of the society they live in. Which tends to make the rules from the holy texts moot because a society is just going to do what it wants anyway. Sometimes the rules of society agree with the texts sometimes they do not.
     
  9. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

    Joined:
    30 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    9,648
    Likes Received:
    388
    There is a big difference from what you are claiming is evidence, to that of anecdotal evidence.
     
  10. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,731
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    Yeah, as someone who has seen many patients die; good people, young people and devout believers, I'm not even going to go there.

    It takes but tuning into the news to see that many people die miserable, undeserved deaths all the time, while a few no more deserving others get lucky and 'miraculously' survive. To try and infer God's existence or motivations from that is futile. If God exists, how are you going to judge His actions or inactions from a human (small-picture, linearly temporal and mortal) framework? A bacteria might as well try and judge ours.
     
    Last edited: 29 Jul 2013
  11. Shichibukai

    Shichibukai Resident Nitpicker

    Joined:
    29 Sep 2009
    Posts:
    137
    Likes Received:
    4
    I admit there are Christians that say hateful things, but most people are so touchy, the mere thought of someone saying something they are doing is wrong is considered offensive and hateful.

     
  12. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    Yes
     
  13. Corky42

    Corky42 Where's walle?

    Joined:
    30 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    9,648
    Likes Received:
    388
    Lots of people claim they have seen UFO's or been abducted by aliens, or seen ghosts, or claimed we didn't land on the moon. Just because lots of people say something, it doesn't constitute evidence that it did or didn't happen.
     
  14. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Unrepentant Savage

    Joined:
    2 Jul 2004
    Posts:
    5,913
    Likes Received:
    533
    So would the Wikipedia article on spontaneous remission be anecdotal, even though it was doctors giving the reports? Or the studies that I linked to earlier, with the power of prayer apparently even crossing species boundaries, to a creature without an idea of the concept of God?

    I could post the video of my son's baptism, where there is an EKG running with almost flat lines, and then post pictures of him after he awakened from being one step short of brain-dead, after having his heart stop for an hour and a half. Did my son die anyway? Yup. But I don't take that as a lack of a God.

    What evidence exists is ambiguous. That doesn't mean nonexistent. Better scientists than us are still puzzling this stuff out. There is a very correct statement being made that I feel impressed to touch on. Bad things happen to good people. There is a Biblical reason for this, believe it or not.

    According to the book of Job, Job was a righteous man in God's eyes. Job did what God asked. Satan came along and bet God that he could get Job to curse God's name-to do a complete 180 of his viewpoint. God said OK, take anything from him but his life. And Satan did. But Job was a lot tougher than Satan thought. He tried everything-killing his children, destroying his house, scattering his herds and ruining his fortune. And while Job asked why, he would not deny God.

    God spoke to Job on the subject of why. "When you can do what I do, you will understand what I've done." If you had the view I have, you could see the good of my actions. In the same wise, a small child has no idea why a parent leaves for work. They don't want them to go. They want their attention all to themselves, but it is in the child's best interest for them to go, even if it saddens the child. The concept is pursued further in the Gospels, where it is intimated that those who do not choose to follow Christ get their reward here on earth, but for those of us here who choose to follow God in the land of Satan's dominion our suffering is here instead, with our reward to come.

    It's an answer for "why do bad things happen to good people," which is more than I've seen anyone else posit. And it's an answer that leads people to a peace with their unchangeable lots in life-those untreatable cancers, the clear-sky accidents, the unexpected deaths. Much about our lot in life is up to us, but it helps us deal with what is not.

    Remember, faith is how to live your life, not how the atom was created. These answers are for those who have no answer. Are they homilies? Maybe, but I don't see anyone else offering an answer that could give the strength to carry on. And that's a lot of what faith is supposed to be. A source of strength in the times when it deserts you.
     
  15. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    An article by its nature is anecdotal.

    The job story is f'd up. God is made out to be worse than the devil in that one.

    Why would an all knowing god make a bet. Surely he would already know what's up with job rendering the whole exercise pointless.

    The only real answer then is the old faithful god works in mysterious ways. Which is the simple acceptance of pure ignorance over any form of knowledge.
     
    Last edited: 30 Jul 2013
  16. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Unrepentant Savage

    Joined:
    2 Jul 2004
    Posts:
    5,913
    Likes Received:
    533
    Job's story is very clearly presented as a parable. And God is not presented as knowing the immediate future-to do so would completely obviate free will, which is mentioned many times in the Bible. Gos trusted that Job would recognize that the things he experienced were not the nature of God and would therefore reject the idea that God was the author of his suffering.

    It seems to me, though, that you are intent on rejecting any evidence that there may be anything other than your worldview out there. We have posted studies (with the numbers to look them up) on multiple issues and articles written by physicians themselves (with the numbers to their studies in the bibliography.) Even though you made the initial statement there's nothing there, you brought no evidence whatsoever to the table, because as has been stated, you can't make a litmus test for a Creator. When people present real scientific evidence there is more out there possibly, you simply reject it out of hand.

    It's extremely difficult to have a debate when only one side is holding up their weight.
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

    Joined:
    23 Oct 2001
    Posts:
    34,731
    Likes Received:
    2,210
    So when homosexuals are being accused of being closet child molesters, they are just being touchy? I think you are conveniently blaming the victim. The first thing a Christian needs to learn (as the parable of Jesus and the woman accused of adultery illustrates) is to not say hateful things.

    No, I am not inferring God's existence from people living or dying at all. It is a matter of faith. There are no neon signs, no secret clues, no doctrine of signatures. You believe because it is meaningful to believe; because the values and principles that God and/or Jesus stand for resonate with you. You believe because it makes sense to. You expect no 'evidence' to prove to you that it is the right thing to believe. You just know it is a good thing to believe.
     
  18. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    Really and what is the the little nugget of truth from such a parable. That bad things happen when god and the devil get together? That whilst most humans have ethical issues with the suffering of lower species god seemingly does not? Do unto others as you would to yourself unless your god in which case I'll do whatever I want? Gambling on another's suffering is fun? Even god can be influenced by the devil? Suffering is good? Even the omnipotent are ok with standing by and watching suffering. The irony is god engaged the devil and was a willing participant in jobs suffering.

    A god knowing the future wouldn't obviate free will.


    Your evidence amounts to one poorly written opinion piece on various studies and another study with a sample size of a whole 22 animals with no further studies using a larger sample size to prove correlation outside of a statistical anomaly. Yes it takes more than that for me and it should certainly take more than that for a scientist. (Remember scientists got the probability of the higgs to 5 sigmas)

    Even if it was evidence of real significance then that undermines your own point about the metaphysicalness of god. So which is it? Is god outside our reality or does he medal in it in a real and measurable way.

    I cannot bring evidence for something that isn't there. It is simply impossible.
     
  19. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Unrepentant Savage

    Joined:
    2 Jul 2004
    Posts:
    5,913
    Likes Received:
    533
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2206563

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14157391

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/799760

    Three separate papers written on the existence of the concept of spontaneous remission, the idea that cancers would suddenly just disappear. There is no known effect that would cause such. It works counter to the idea of cancer, in fact. Some of the cited cases disappeared between one exam and another.

    Everson T., Cole W. (1968) Spontaneous Regression of Cancer Philadelphia, JB Saunder & Co

    Robert A.Weinberg: The Biology of Cancer, Garland Science 2007

    Boyd W: The spontaneous regression of cancer. Charles Thomas, Publ., Springfield Ill. 1966

    Three books on selfsame subject. All of these are written by experts in the field.

    http://discovermagazine.com/2007/sep/the-body-can-stave-off-terminal-cancer-sometimes#.Ufg4qm1r270

    Another article, this time by Discover magazine, a source that cannot be accused of religious bias.

    http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/natural-medicine/alternative/prayer-healing.htm

    Check the links, real studies cited in the text.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/alternative/01/18/prayer.power.wmd/

    I can do this for a long, long time.

    But what's even more interesting is studying the effects that prayer has on the individual praying.

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/05/130514184139.htm

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101214085328.htm

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110321134714.htm

    http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100127134607.htm

    That's just one site that found enough interesting scientifically on the subject.

    We did this exchange a while back. Nexxo, if you run across this can you dig up the list of studies that was posted? I can't remember where the original was.
     
  20. theshadow2001

    theshadow2001 [DELETE] means [DELETE]

    Joined:
    3 May 2012
    Posts:
    5,284
    Likes Received:
    183
    Yes cancer remission is a thing. I don't see what it has to do with god though.

    I would well believe that prayer can have positive effects on the person. However I wouldn't ascribe it to god breaking his metaphysical bonds to interfere with reality (and by doing so interfering with free will). I would just put it down as any other form of meditation, or similar secular equivalent.
     
    Last edited: 30 Jul 2013

Share This Page