Hi all! I am currently in my final year of Uni and I am planning to go Design Engineer route, therefore will be using software like Catia V5/Solidworks very often and hopefully my projects on said software will get larger throughout next year. Not only it will be used for a year but for my career or further training on the software, therefore I will require a powerful machine to do the job as smooth and quick as possible. Unfortunately I don't have enough time to keep track of new hardware releases ect, therefore have to ask your advice guys Purpose: Mainly engineering 3D software/analysis but will be used for awesome games such as GTA V when it comes out! Budget: Depends, will spend around £1000 until winter time, will not be buying parts straight away in one day. If there are parts which will cost more but last longer in terms of running new software and games for next few years I will happily consider them. Hope for your advice guys, thank you in advance!
Had a look at some processors and motherboards...I must say there is A LOT to choose from and I cant get my head around it! I've been looking at some i5 and i7 processors from £160 to£250 pounds, but wasn't so sure what's their difference Same with motherboards, so much to choose from and I don't know which one may suit my needs Hope you guys can shed some light on this. Forgot to mention, I don't have a monitor so will require this as well, maybe you guys know tried and tested good monitors, it might be included in the budget but might be bought separately, will need something big for 3D design. Thanks!
If you can afford it, go for a hexcore intel processor. However it does look like you can't so I would recommend something like this basket. https://secure.scan.co.uk/aspnet/Shop/SavedBasket/Show.aspx?id=bb76b83ba757422d92f6324d45eae785 I've used Scan exclusively, but I'd probably try and find cheaper RAM from somewhere else as well as more. If you can, I'd get 16GB 1600MHz. The screen can also be swapped out for any of the excellent LG IPS panels with a matte coating at a similar £120-140 price point. Finally, if you have money to spare, I'd grab an SSD and a third party CPU cooler(for overclocking).
i5s are non hyper threading (e.g. 4 real cores and 0 logical cores) i7s have hyper threading (e.g. 4 real cores 4 logical cores) it's very important to remember that real core ≠ logical core. Depending on what you're doing a hyper threaded CPU will (when both are fully loaded) run 10-20% faster than a non-hyper threaded CPU. The big advantage is in parallel task management - so if your GPU is doing all the work, but waiting for instructions from an over-stretched CPU then hyper threading will help considerably more than if, the CPU is doing all the work - more speed and real cores are the answer there. With regards to motherboards, it's pretty much just a case of get one that fits your CPU, the graphs on these two pages give you some idea of the differences you'll see in performance. That is, minimal. If anything, look to the most favourable warranty. The amount of memory you'll need will depend on the number of surfaces and the complexity of their geometry. Basically how big your files are and the bigger your files, the more memory I don't know about SW/Catia, but with Photoshop I discovered you want to have about about 15-20 times more memory than your saved file size. At that price I presume you're going to fit a Quadro/FireGL card into your budget? Either Quadro 2000 or V5900 are the bottom of the rung for 3D work (there are lower/cheaper for both, but they are not for you) at £350-ish it's not bank breaking and you'll have vastly improved performance if you use any sort of shading while you work. The AMD card tends to run even faster than the nVidia here, probably thanks to it having double the memory at its disposal. They tend to run games a bit slower than the equivalently priced consumer GPU, but what's more important to you? If you're not buying a professional card, do not by a nVidia card as they have completely throttled openGL in their consumer cards whereas AMD have just trimmed. My system is completely out of date but here's a comparison I did on my system, swapping the GPU between a Quadro FX4600, a Geforce 8800GTS (same number of "cores" as the FX4600) and an 8800GTX (same amount of memory as the FX4600). Here are the graphs for SolidWorks and Catia I created using data from SPECviewperf11 (SolidWorks 02, Catia 03). And here's 3DMark Vantage. Things have changed a lot since then obviously - but the professional and consumer cards are still intentionally staggered to best fit their market intentions. Definitely try and squeeze a SSD in there, even if it ends up being so small that Windows, SW, Catia and the file for your current project (+10% empty space) are all that you can fit. And I don't know if either SW or Catia can use a scratch drive; if so, then a second small (smaller) SSD would help speed things up here too. Tangster, I can't see your basket. Just me?
First of all, I appreciate all the time you guys have taken to help me! Tangster: I was planning buying all the parts from Scan anyway, so thanks for a great list! I was also thinking 16GB of RAM, more memory wouldn't hurt right? In terms of screen, I just need a big enough for the ease of 3D design, I am not going to edit photos where I would need to see each pixel perfectly So I guess the one you chose, would suit my needs perfectly! SSD was also in plans, especially when they get cheaper and cheaper If I understand correctly, for the program/game to run faster, it will need to be installed on that SSD right? Thanks for a great advice! asura: So if I understand you correctly, the processor in the Tangster's basket is the right one for me? Also, the two cards you advice to use, will run the 3D software better than the one Tangster used in his basket? Although the one he offered has triple the memory? As I said, the build will not be quick do to finance (my other half will kill me), therefore I might be able to fit something that will bring more benefit but cost little more. If I will not be able to afford "professional" card, I will be better of with AMD right? Once again, thanks for your help guys! P.S - Would water cooling be overkill? Something like that will be fine? http://www.scan.co.uk/products/180g...lash-read-500mb-s-write-450mb-s-52000-iops-ma http://www.scan.co.uk/products/128g...lc-flash-read-490mb-s-write-350mb-s-8000-iops
As a person who does a lot of 3d modeling and design here is what I can recommend for advice: 1. Processor > GPU. I know that all the programs say that they are GPU accelerated but your processor will make a much bigger difference than a high end GPU. The difference between a 2.8ghz and a 3.4ghz processor is VERY noticeable in these programs 2. 8gb RAM minimum. Doing medium sized builds in Solidworks (60-80 parts) I would be eating about 4-5 gigs of RAM 3. HDD speed. I would NOT recommend an SSD since there is a lot of file writing, but make sure you are not using a "green drive" since that will slow you down considerably when opening assemblies with lots of files.
I would certainly still say go SSD. They are good for everything bar server level all-day writes and common SSDs will take 10s of TB a day! I seriously doubt you'll see close to that and by the time it's a worry you'll want to upgrade it anyway/prices and capacities will have come down. In the last 5 years I've been upgrading an SSD a year almost. The CPU part is difficult. LGA2011 is out of your budget but the best upgrade path, AM3+ has more ALU cores but less FPU and IPC (same goes for HTT: it doesn't add FPU). I have no idea if 3D modelling is floating point or ALU based sorry, but I'll assume it is. I'd definitely plop for a K series chip and OC the nuts off it. Well, until dial it back until it's 24/7 stable. Take a look at: Z87 Gryphon - workstation quality components and 5 year warranty. i5-4670K 16GB DDR3. 1866 at low latency you can get. Good cooler! Decent but inexpensive mATX case 256GB SSD (plenty of NAND to spread your writes over) and HDD (or even NAS) for putting non-essential work on. ~500W PSU (not CX series sorry) Whatever is left on graphics Or, see if you can pick up an 3570K/2500K/2600K bundle 2nd hand, but your warranty on that motherboard will be half way gone by now.
As mentioned, avoid nVidia if you can't afford a QUADRO. They completly locked the openGL performance in their GeForce drivers. Catia and Solidworks are openGL based softwares so it leaves you with AMD Radeon on the consumer GPU side or both AMD Firepro's / nVidia Quadro on the professionnal side. Keep in mind that those PRO GPU are highly optimised for CAD soft and will run far better than comparable consumer card, but they are far below in gaming compared to similarly priced consumer cards. To give you an example, for gaming, a Firepro W5000 (450€) is on paar with an HD7770 (100€) but will completly outspace an HD7950 for CAD. About the CPU, most tasks except rendering are mono-threaded. So you need CPU that is fast at single thread processing. AMD is pretty much a no go there (but it's a good choice for CPU based rendering). My advise would be : - INTEL CPU : i5 or i7 - 16GB Ram - SSD - Fast storage for data about the GPU ... it depends. If you are not doing it as a living (i.e. earning money from this activity), then a pro-grade GPU is not mandatory or relevant. Just keep in mind that even an entry level PRO GPU (Quadro 2000 - Firepro V5900/W5000) is better than a GTX680. They are optimised to display models faster, they are more accurate (especially when things are superposed) and they loads scene faster. I wouldn't build a workstation + gaming rig inside the same machine, unless you can afford an high-end PRO GPU like the firepro W9000 / Quadro K5000. A workstation should stay a workstation. I'm building myself a workstation, but I'm going with an Intel E3 xeon (equivalent to i5 but with ECC memory support), a supermicro mATX motherboard and a Firepro V7900 (second hand). I'll later add raid card to build a RAID6 data array (but this adds a lot to the budget).
Once again, thanks for all your advice guys! You must be right, it's not what I will do for a living just yet, but it will be year or more after, for now though, it will be used for my final year project (3D project) and training on 3D software so I don't think I need to spend a fortune for a professional card just yet. Although thanks for advice about the AMD, will definitely look into those cards. As of the processor, I think I will be able to afford 2011 if this: http://www.scan.co.uk/products/inte...y-bridge-e-quad-core-37ghz-39ghz-turbo-retail will be a good choice, being the cheapest out of it's series on Scan? With something like Asus Rampage IV or Gigabyte GA-X79S-UP5. Yes it's more expensive than I planned but I guess it will be a better benefit for upgrading in future, and if I am successful with my 3D I can upgrade to a professional card later, and not worry about CPU? What you guys think about it? As of GPU, there is a lot to choose from and I guess the card in Tangster basket will suit the needs for now? I do understand that workstation should be separate to a gaming rig, but for now I need to make it 2 in 1 kind of machine. I am sure I will not be having amazingly big, detailed, professional projects just yet, to worry about machine taking several more minutes to think during analysis or rendering. Thanks once again! You are a big help to me guys
LGA2011 is a great choice for a workstation. You'll benefit from the quad channel memory (just make shure to buy 4 RAM stick ). About the GPU, the 7950 will serves you well. I'm currently using a Q6600 and an HD5870 with Maya and it's all good. I just turn the mesh smooth *ON* for preview / quick render, so it's spares my GPU from eating a few hundreds of thousands of polygons lol. I had an Athlon xp2000 with 1GB DDR 400 and a geforce4 64 MB when I started my 3D school in 2002 (no job, no money, no rig xD). Been using 3DS and Maya, just learnt to wait a little (rendering 2minutes of animation @ DVD res took like a month 24/7).
Hi there again guys! Finally I have the money to start my build! YAY! Just looked at Asus Rampage IV Formula and I see someone rated 1 out of 5 and I didn't find a review on bit tech, only for IV Rampage Extreme, which costs 60 pounds more. So, is it a good motherboard or if I go that way I will need Extreme version? So many boards to choose from! This was another choice, what you think guys? http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asus...r3-sata-iii-6gb-s-sata-raid-pcie-30-(x16)-atx Or is there a big point spending so much on a board? Or something like this will do just fine? http://www.scan.co.uk/products/asro...r3-sata-iii-6gb-s-sata-raid-pcie-30-(x16)-atx This is the build I am thinking of now: Intel Core i7 Extreme 4820K ASRock X79 Extreme4 Corsair Memory Vengeance Blue 8GB MSI Overclocked Radeon HD 7950 Corsair CP-9020048-UK Corsair Carbide Series 200R Compact ATX Case WD WD10JPVX Blue 1TB 2.5" Hard Drive SATA 3 Acer 23" UM.VH6EE.001 H6 Series Total cost of £941 Later I will add another 8GB of memory and an SSD. If you think I can save on something please suggest as it will be a great bonus! Thanks! P.S - Can you please suggest what cooler to use for CPU and is there a bit-tech discount codes for Scan? I remember there was a discount some time ago
About the ram, did you choose a 4 RAM sticks pack ? LGA2011 cpu have quad channel memory, You'll loose lots of memory bandwidth with only 2 RAM sticks. LGA2011 CPU heats quite a lot, you need a decent cooler. I think an all-in-one watercooler could be nice, if the budget allows it. Keep in mind that The Corsair 200R case fits heatsink with a maximum height of 160mm. Western Digital is a nice choice of HDD, but I wouldn't go with the blue series (too slow). I know you're going to add an SSD later, but could you get a Black series instead ? It'll greatly improve perf while you gather money for the SSD upgrade. I have no opinion about the motherboard as I have no experience with LGA2011 cpu's. I'll let the knowledgeable BitTechers answer you on this point
Thanks for your advice! I will be buying another set of same ram so it will make up the 4 sticks as you said I will look into hdds you recomended, but for now i want to make my mind up on mobo and cpu, so i can order them first Hope it will be a good setup :/ THANKS!
If you only get 4 DIMMs anyway and you're not buying a 6-core chip, why go X79? Z87 is better equipped.
What about an AMD setup? The 8 core 8350 and AM3+ mobo combo would save you a lot of money AND CAD software is one of the few applications right now where having more physical cores on your CPU would probably be better than a Quad Intel, especially when doing renderings, if that's your goal. Hyperthreading is good, but it isn't going to replace having more actual workers. Also, if you're planning on buying one of Asus' top end boards, you can easily overclock your CPU to get even more juice out of it.
Thanks for advice guys Bindi, I see what you mean, I had a look at mobos and cpus on said socket: smt like that http://www.scan.co.uk/products/msi-...-sata-raid-pcie-30-(x16)-d-sub-dvi-d-hdmi-atx or asRock extreme 4 again woukd be fine I guess? But what CPU to go for? I5 or i7? I can afford the K series but is there much advantage over S series? As of AMD, I never trusted amd systems, I dont know why.... There is a logic in what you say about the cores but I am really on intels side for some reason, but will look into f.ew systems might change my mind. Thank you guys
Just looked at AMD systems, they do look power, although is there a reason is so cheap compared to intel? Just worried if I ll choose to go that way I will think why its so cheap, maybe theres is something wrong with them?Never looked into AMD industry. Thanks.
There's nothing wrong with AMD on a quality level. They don't have the single core performance of Intel's competing chips, that's why they try to under cut Intel with lower prices. Also, AM3+ mobos are cheaper because they've been around longer (AMD has been on the same socket for a long time. Intel's new chips are on a new socket, which also explains the higher prices). However, despite having lower clock for clock performance than Intel's CPUs, applications that take advantage of every core (like CAD software) WILL perform better than Intel's quad cores. I was going to go AMD when I did my most recent build but I went Intel because there are no AM3+ motherboards in the ITX form factor, which I needed. I do CAD work as well. Battlefield 4 and every Frostbite 3 engine game, such as Dragon Age: Inquisition are all being optimized for the AMD/Radeon platform.
