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Manchester MEN Arena Incident

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Instagib, 22 May 2017.

  1. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Minimodder

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    Religious fundamentalism very Freudian or is it jungian let's ask nexxo
     
  2. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    I was talking in the post about the actions of The West* in the current context. Actually in the post 9/11 engagements if you like, though if you want to go back further please do. And by The West, I guess mean it in it's post-WW2, context. West as opposed to East. Developed World Democracies, I guess.

    Again I'm not sure what your point is other than to claim that everyone has done bad things and there are no absolutes, so bad things and bad and we're all bad therefore if someone somewhere is doing a bad thing to someone else we should say, hey, we won't do anything about that other than perhaps blame ourselves a bit.
     
  3. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Well I was impressed at how fast the logic went from a English Muslim suicide bomber blowing up some kids for the crime of listening to what I guess was probably dire pop pap to having a laugh at the antics of Westboro baptist church!
     
  4. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    Then you really should watch that documentary from an actual former war correspondent
     
  5. Disequilibria

    Disequilibria Minimodder

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    I will have to at some point. Bookmarked. Jeez that's a lot of work.

    Well turns out a few pages back some a link was posted about some ****wit who thinks that the Manchester victims deserved it because Bible says so. And mindless insensitivity about clear tragedies from supposed Christians always leads to the WBC. Like a godwins law of discussions on Christianity.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2017
  6. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Mercifully for whatever reason no-one drags up pics of al-muhajiroun antics at these times.
     
  7. Yadda

    Yadda Minimodder

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    Anyone sick of the hate-spin certain vulturous factions are putting on events should watch this interview. It's the perfect antidote.

    "I don't care who you believe in or where you're from, this city is for everybody. They want to divide us, don't they? They want us to turn on our neighbours and it will never happen. Not here."

     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    If there's cock involved --> Freudian.

    The message Is: we all do bad things for what we think are good reasons at the time, but to the victim those reasons are quite meaningless, and we need to remember that when justifying our actions and condemning those of others.
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2017
  9. faugusztin

    faugusztin I *am* the guy with two left hands

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    Guys who want to drop a nuke - where do you want to drop a nuke on a person who was born in UK, has UK passport and commits this kind of attack ? Because lately that is what happens - domestic radicalized offsprings of immigrants. It was the case with perpetrator of this attack, also it was the case of Brussels attack, in the Paris atacks, the Charlie Hebdo attacks, the 2005 London bombings. So where should that nuke go ?

    See, it is not that simple. You can't use a machine gun to find a needle in a haystack.
     
  10. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    When it comes to decisions of foreign policy the decision to act has consequences as does the decision not to act, or not to decide. I believe that coalition intervention in Iraq against Daesh probably stopped them overrunning Baghdad which given Daesh's record would most likely been an appalling massacre which might well have likely turned the current sunni-shia proxy wars into more open conflict, had Iran decided to invade to protect the Iraqi Shia.

    Likewise The UK US decision to allow Assad to cross Obama's red line on chemical weapons emboldened him in his attacks on his own people and lead the way for Russia to intervene in other to assist him in that.

    Past actions and their impacts should of course inform decision making, but should not be used an an excuse for looking the other way when there is no one else capable of acting effectively.,


    As for the victim's standpoint, you have to ask whether the victims of the Manchester attack feel any less loss because a bomb hit the wrong target in Syria and killed someone else. A young man went out that night with the intention of killing their children and did so. The coalition were intervening in Syria in the hope of defeating Daesh which will save lives. Those intentions do matter.
     
  11. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    Is there much point in debating the relative morality of this incident? I'm fairly sure the people behind this aren't spending too much time keeping track of who's winning the morality game. For as long as 'western' states maintain a significant level of interference in the territories where the extremist attitudes develop, western states will continue to be targeted. And it is highly stupid to think that we can eradicate extremism through military intervention.

    I'm only surprised this sort of thing hasn't happened sooner. I've been expecting something to happen at a school, particularly since vehicles started being used to target crowds. If you're going for the jugular, in a western society children are the jugular. If multiple schools were hit, suddenly every parent in the country starts questioning the everyday occurrence of leaving their kids at school. Particularly if you've convinced someone to detonate a suicide bomb, why not get them to ambush a school assembly and do it?
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2017
  12. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    Absolutely, however the relative morality is merely the first step in recognising the part we had to play in this. We've invaded and destabilised the middle east to get access to their resources, installing our preferred leaders, feeding the military industrial complex as we go, and creating the desire to launch retaliatory attacks on our own nation which (bonus!) gives the powers that be an excuse to impose greater authoritarian measures and control of the voting population.

    Here's a video of British soldiers torturing Iraqi civilians

    Here's a video of a ground trooper's testimony in the immediate aftermath of the Bradley Manning Collateral Murder video. Note that he opens with "This happens daily in Iraq" and there are countless other veterans who'll back up that.

    I'm sure I don't need to show you the torture of prisoners in Al Ghraib.

    If we don't want our children to be murdered we have to stop murdering The Other's children. We need to demand accountability and deescalation. The modern Middle East occupation is going on 20 years now; Things have only gotten worse, jihadists have only become more numerous and sophisticated, and our own democracies have become less democratic. We need to stop buying in to the propaganda of perpetual war.
     
  13. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Well the US doesn't control the oil anywhere in the region, they didn't get their preferred leaders and no I don't believe that Bush, Obama, Blair, Brown or Cameron actually wanted terrorist to attack the US and the UK. It's sounding like a load of conspiracy claptrap that comes out every time a young Muslim decides to kill some kids like this.
     
  14. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    Ok - so why are coalition forces in the middle east? Why have they been there for decades? The idea that we send troops and planes in to deliver freedom to the oppressed people of these countries seems pretty thin when you look back at the history of western involvement in that area of the world.

    Even if all this western military intervention really was with the best of intentions - it doesn't seem to work.
     
  15. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    The Last 5 presidents of Iraq:
    Fuad Masum
    Jalal Talabani
    Ghazi Mashal Ajil al-Yawer
    Paul Bremner
    Jay Garner

    Two of these kids are not like the others. That's what we call a regime change (and a constitutional change imposed by the west).

    The largest oil field in Iraq is majority licensed to Shell at 45%; This, after the existing infrastructure was destroyed and government handing out future contracts was vetted by the US-led coalition.
     
  16. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Well they're in Iraq assisting the government dealing with Daesh. Without them Bagdad would have falled with horrific consequences.


    The Iraq invasion was obviously a bad move at the time, but 9/11 changed the assumptions about preemptive as opposed to reactive action. If we are being counterfactual, I would contend that intervention in Iraq would have happened at some point as Saddam was sooner or later going to accomodate Bin-Ladin based on there shared enemies, even though they were hardly easy company at the time. A mutual desire to attack the Saudis, the Shia and the West was enough. But that's my conterfactual on this. What's yours
     
  17. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    Fwiw the prime minister is more important in Iraq, the President is semi-ceremonial and the post has been held by a Kurd.

    The iraqi constitution was approved by the Iraqis in a referendum. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_constitutional_referendum,_2005
     
  18. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    The PM technically holds more executive power, but the President is in charge of the military, which counts for everything during a military occupation.

    A referendum heavily drafted by the US, whose definition of "voter" failed after much criticism. Like Henry Ford said, you can have any colour as long as it's black
     
    Last edited: 24 May 2017
  19. Risky

    Risky Modder

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    I looked up the image and, um, you have a point about a film, um.
     
  20. VipersGratitude

    VipersGratitude Multimodder

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    It's minority report, and I used it because your argument was not based on facts, but entirely on speculation. I can't believe you had to look up minority report...
     

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