Hilliary vs. Trump: The 2016 US Presidental Election

Living here in America I see the whole thing as:
Alt-Right: Nazis
Alt-Left: Allied forces storming the beaches at Normandy

There is no alt-left here. But I live surrounded by people who will do me harm as soon as they know who I am. I know people who were at Charlottesville and other rallies, and there's no reasoning with them. They live for violence and seethe with hatred. I went to school with these people, college, and church. This sure isnt the love of Jesus.

 

Because all those named would kill, discriminate and/or subjugate people based on arbitrary collective guilt and implement totalitarianism given power.

Statistically all dependant on how you measure it.

NSDAP: ~11mn


Antifa are communists, so called anarcho-communists. BLM elements I was talking about are anti white and contain significant numbers of black supremacists. I don't see any difference between whether you are an anti pro white collectivist or a pro black collectivist. Radical feminism (and I may be being too narrow) is a female chauvinism.
*Important* Antifa are communists, the other side are national socialists. THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE: 1920s and 30s spain, italy, germany. When the communists and fascists start fighting it's time to argue against both and to stop the violence from both. Because the lesson from history is that you end up ruled by one set of these people if you make the mistake of thinking one side is better than the other.


The reason why they are in the same place on an objective political spectrum is because the objective measures of what they believe, i.e you can accurately categorise and place an ideology on a political left right spectrum by their collectivism or individualism, which can be broken down* into objective characteristics of those beliefs.

There are of course people who like the horseshoe theory but that is just a poor attempt of a solution to the perversion of the traditional left right of placing nationalist socialism on the right end to effectively serve two purposes for international socialism: 1. to make people forget national socialists are in fact socialists (read engels and marx on jews and the need to kill off tribal or feudal stage peoples because bringing them forward through 2/3 steps ((feudal)-capitalism- socialism) is too much.) 2. Is to make it look like the libertarian pro market people in centre right parties are to be suspect as they are an inch away from the dreaded far right)
The reason why national socialism becomes a problem when attached to the right is because people start to notice similar behaviours, similar policy proscriptionsand similar levels of inter group hatred between the socialists and nationalist socialists. That is because these ideologies just have different preferences and prejudices to a group rather than have any core difference.
The reason why horseshoe theory is a problem is that it can't account for staunch individualists correctly and suggests somehow you go from individualism to radical murderous collectivism if your views move to the right.

There is the political compass but your economic freedoms are your social freedoms. There is the O ring but see horseshoe.

*Extreme collectivism broken down:
extremely Anti market, pro state: you can find Richard spencer talking "anit capitalist" plenty, rad fems. marxists, antifa, nazis (including the big H) also.
Anti individual freedom, pro state: all believe in censorship andsupression of rival ideologies including religions to maintain hegemony of their ideas when they are in power or are gaining power within a system.
Collective guilt: marxism (bourgeoisie), soviets (see marxism add kulaks also), national socialism (the jews and untermenchen), modern neo marxist variants (white males).
A collective in group: proletariat, the ubermenchen, white people and neo marxism complicated it with a heirarchy but if there's a half black half native american trangender lesbian muslim trade unionist that is disabled out there that's the top and a white, christian, male, straight, able bodied, rich business owner that person is at the bottom.
Victim-hood narrative: "jewish conspiracy," "zionist conspiracy," bourgeoisie are oppressing you, white people are, etc
Group rights rather than individual rights.
By any means necessary tactics to power, ends justify means.
Both totalitarian and authoritarian.

I'm probably forgetting a few but regardless they all have repugnant views based in prejudice of an individual based on group perceptions that would enslave us all.

*edit* yep forgot equality of outcome, often assume that if outcomes aren't equal then must be oppression. I.e successful jews in science and finance in germany (despite structural anti semitism), one group earning more than another in the modern era or just general inequality. (that equality of outcome doesn't extend to the people who are guilty by class)

 

Antifa are communists. Communists were not storming the beaches of Normandy. It's a gross comparison. Also people who were storming the beaches were troops defending their nations sanctioned by the state not a bunch of rabble rousing marxists who think they can go round to "bash the fash." If the police just did their job there'd have been no violence.

( Never mind the fact that they determine everyone they disagree with to be the "fash," yeah maybe they got it right for once, but people in the us have the freedom to lawfully assemble and to speak whatever repugnant views for a reason. Political violence begets violence, it makes martyrs on both sides, it can split a country between who they think is most hard done by (i.e how the national socialists and fascists made it in Germany and Italy).)

 

The phrase alt right was invented by Richard spencer IIRC it was 2015 or 16. I think the causality is the wrong way around. The KKK as they were originally the main white racist threat were a democrat leaning organisation and of the left.

You can look up videos of jared taylor (i'm not doing it because it takes forever to purge them from recommended feeds on youtube) simply stating that their support for trump is because they believe mass migration is an attempt at white genocide and that they'll simply side with the candidate that will slow immigration the most. Because the democrats have become beholden to identity politics of ethnic minorities to drum up their base the democrats have little interest in talking migration. Trump does the immigration bit from a law and order and socio-economic point of view, or at least most of his base vote for it because of that (hence the focus on illegals). There's a long tradition going back to trotsky on the extreme left of the "united front" which is siding with people because they can move an issue in your direction for convenience of achieving the overall ideological aims.

The alt right white genocide narrative is reinforced with every reverse racism or affirmative action policy, every far leftist professor or activist that preaches anti white bollocks sometimes to the point of actually explicitly calling for white genocide, every sanctuary city (or other failure to enforce immigration law on purpose), every huffpo, guardian or other lefty rag's opinion article that if you replaced white with black or jew it reads like a stormer piece or mein kampf. These people feed off each other, they are symbiotic until they're big enough to take over.

The democrats in particular have been playing a dangerous game of identity politics with certain acceptable groups (while saying other racial/ gender/ sexual identities are bad) , the problem is when you teach one side to identity politic you de facto teach the other. If people are told they're trash because of an inherent characteristic and that they should be and found guilty for it then don't be surprised when some start saying "no you get to make an identity around your characteristics and be proud of that identity, you get to defend yours, I'm proud of my identity and i'll defend it"
See black panthers, nation of islam, black power for other examples from the pre civil rights act period for this mechanism working from a different angle.

But i'm pissing in the wind here. Bottom line is argue against extreme collectivism, political violence and divisive identity politics of all stripes within a nation or be inevitably ruled by one of them.

Trump probably doesn't even understand what the alt right are most of the media and people don't. Trump probably assumes it is just a prefix to anything bad, so just used it. Or more likely he's watching Hannity on fox news who will have you legless if you took a shot every time he says " Alt-left destroy trump media"

More CTRL left really there is an actual group calling themselves the "alt left" that were trying to separate themselves from the american "progressive" (regressive) left which went full identity politics so they are very confused by this I hear.

And it's more like " everyone should have equal outcomes, men, women, black, or white. No wait maybe white men or even white women should suffer unequal outcomes for a while to compensate for unequal outcomes now." "What's that asain people earn more than anyone? Well they have internailised "whiteness.""
"oh and anyone who disagrees will get the bullet"
"and yes liberals get the bullet too"

Whenever you hear people talk about equality you should be asking "what kind? access to opportunity, before the law, outcome..." They're the difference between freedom and tyranny.

Overall just be a mensch

 

It was earlier than that but whatever, also the KKK were and still are definitely of the right, to say otherwise is buying into some peoples attempts to distort history.

You also seem to be conflating many issues into a "anti white bollocks" ideology much like other people on the extreme right and the only reason they see it like that is because they have a them vs us mentality, in other words they project their world view onto others and consider any talk of equality to be "anti" this or that, they view the world as some sort of perpetual struggle for dominance and project their own psychological categorisation of ingroups and outgroups onto others.

They interpret talk of some white people being dicks into all white people are dicks instead of seeing it as people being dicks.

It's basically the classic white genocide conspiracy theory.



Back OT:

And...

 

Looks like Kelly has told Bannon to go Bannon himself...

 

About bloody time someone stood up to that clown.

 

Great news!
I do wonder whether they made some kind of arrangement though. Bannon has a very strong connection to Trump's most ardent supporter base (via Breitbart, Cambridge Analytica, etc.), so Bannon turning on Trump could prove very dangerous for the latter. And as soon as the Republicans realise Trump has lost the support of a significant part of their voters they'll drop him like a brick and before long we'd have president Pence, a more predictable puppet, in the White House.

On a somewhat related note, I found this article by Glen Greenwald a very interesting read:
theintercept.com/2017/08/05/whats-worse-trumps-campaign-agenda-or-empowering-generals-and-cia-operatives-to-subvert-it/
It's a good thing some of the more radical members of Trump's staff are being replaced, but the replacements themselves aren't exactly good news.

 

I have the best people around me - just the best. They're so talented - such talent. We're going to get things done so fast - so fast.

 

Likewise Ryan [who'd be next in line if Pence went down with the Trumptanic].

The best case scenario for those who are anti-trump was and still is:

• Ensure administration in-fighting results in Trump getting as little done as possible prior to the mid-terms, [more or less what's happening now]
• hope for the Republicans to lose their slender senate majority in said mid-terms [imo unlikely as, as toxic as trump is, the Dems have got nuthin']
• Impeach Trump and leave Pence with a lame duck administration

 

Basically. There is no anti-fascist movement. Being against fascism is just being decent people.

 

https://www.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/anarchist-extremists-antifa

You might want to tell the Department of Homeland Security then.....

 

That is not a movement. I think that you're missing the point.

 

So I'm going to ask what maybe a dumb question but if you don't ask i guess you don't learn, what differentiates a movement from groups?

Everything I'm looking at in Google seems to refer to them as a movement.

 

A movement is a coherent organisation of people with a common ideology, cause, objectives and strategy. Antifa sounds like a bunch of disparate groups doing their own thing.

But the point is: you don't need to be part of a political movement or group to be against fascism. This spurious link makes normal decent humanity sound like an extremist ideology; basically, that having any political view or critique, except perhaps a pliant, non-committal "gosh, it's all so complicated, I guess there's two sides to everything" one, is something to be frowned upon with suspicion. Identity politics, yo: if you're not with us, you're with them.

Screw that. Fascism is wrong. That is not alt-left, it's not radical, it's not even political. It's just common human morality.

 

They are made up of disparate groups but so is fascism, the alt-right, or whatever we're calling the group of people who the Antifa oppose.

And while i too see fascism as wrong I'd also say Antifa is wrong, not because like fascism that i disagree with their ideology but because i disagree with their use of violence.

 

The problem is that Trump and his supporters create the narrative that if you oppose fascism, you must be extreme left.

 

@ Disequilibria.
You broke that down nicely in your posts and to the point. Like a breath of fresh air. Well done.

It's an accurate observation in terms of different groups but the point of it is thou, that as soon as they come together they become a movement and coherent group and it's the mob mentality that creates the cohesion that binds them together, when they riot against society itself. These people will show up at any event just to riot FFS can be G3 conference.They resort to convoluted logic when they claim moral high ground rioting and destroying peoples businesses and property.

 

Sorry, which ones are you talking about? They all blur into each other a bit.

Perhaps what distinguishes people is not what they believe, but how they behave.