E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

Now our politicians have demonstrated an utter lack of intelligence the EU is probably second guessing the value of any cooperation on security related projects.

Is it just me who finds some of the things our politicians are saying in their Brexit speeches in recent days rather odd, i mean Mrs May said the EU must not be driven by deep-seated ideology when it comes to security and while that probably plays well with leave voters i get the impression they don't care, and aren't even listening too, how Brexit is going, while the EU and remainers immediately spot the irony.

 

My impression is that most Leave voters have tuned out by now. A few have the horrible feeling that they made a mistake; a few on the other extreme are feeling betrayed in their simplistic right-wing expectation that the UK would be out by now. But most have had their moment of unfocused rage, and are now tuning out again as daily life demands claim their attention while things turn out to be rather complicated. Politicians be politicians, what do you expect? When the going gets tough, the electorate shrugs and gets drunk at the nearest Whetherspoons.

Thing is, almost nobody gave a **** about being in or out of the EU until Cameron turned it into a ball to kick.

Having spent some time in the country of my birth, the Netherlands, was interesting. Brexit was mentioned absolutely nowhere. Not even Boris Johnson's speech. I get the distinct impression that it is seen as an internal British political issue. The Netherlands is already preparing for new customs arrangements --it is hiring 750 more customs staff-- and Ireland is doing the same. No big deal, just timely preparations for 2019. What is the UK doing?

 

Self-imploding, it's a national trait.

You often see it in team sports but give us any decent situation and we'll implode just so we can struggle on against adversity with a stiff upper lip.

Bloody good at it at that, say anything else and you're unpatriotic.

 

Spending time in the Netherlands after a long period of living in the UK created some interesting perspectives.

Item: the Netherlands doesn't seem to have many homeless beggars. We didn't see a single one (three equivalents of Big Issue sellers, though). Den Haag is a big city, and although I am aware we spent most of our time in a nice neighbourhood, we also spent a lot of time in the city centre. Compare this to Birmingham: In my two hours in the city centre yesterday I was accosted by seven of them. They were everywhere.

Item: Dutch trains are awesome. We took a double-decker train back to Schiphol airport, on the Den Haag to Amsterdam route, during rush hour. It was only three-quarters full. During rush hour. Seats are spacious, with 2ft between the edge of your seat and the back of the next. Trays fit an entire magazine, opened up. Being fully electrified (electricity for the railroads are 100% supplied by wind farms), the ride was smooth and whisper quiet.

Item: Shop assistants of all ages seamlessly switched between Dutch (to me and other customers) and English (to my wife). I witnessed some also speaking fluent German to the occasional German tourist. Of course, Den Haag and Delft are fairly cosmopolitan, but still, most Dutch know at least two foreign languages, and are not afraid to use them.

Item: there was no mention of the EU in the papers or news. No complaints, no debate, no controversy. The Netherlands appears to see itself as a country fully in control of its own affairs. Then again, there is no bigger 'taking back control' than taking your own land from the sea.

My wife and I visited Scheveningen. To explain to her the relationship of the Dutch to our country, I took her to the top of a dune. I pointed at the sea: "Look at the sea level". Then I pointed inland: "Now look at the level of the land". It was visibly lower, by about seven metres. She commented on how even on that day, big tractors were working on the beach and the dunes. She observed: "You didn't dig the canals, lakes and rivers; you built your country around them". And indeed we did. Even now engineers are planning for the rise in sea level (we finished debating global warming long time ago; we are doing something about it) and designing water works for the next 50 years --that is how far we think ahead. The Dutch learn from an early age that we pulled our land from the sea; that you have to always work at earning and keeping your place in the world, and not take it for granted.

The British talk about their sceptered isle and splendid isolation. British trains run on Victorian railroads; big cities still rest on Victorian sewers. Most of your housing, and your best buildings come from that era, all still solid on their foundations. Britain is a country that stands on the shoulders of its Victorian giants in science, engineering, law, art and architecture. The first nation to abolish slavery. A nation renowned for its diplomats and universities. It is the birthplace of the industrial revolution and of the computer. Britain was once awesome.

But all is in steady (as Thatcher would call it: "managed") decline. The British have become complacent, resting on the wilting laurels of colonial privilege and achievement of generations past, while at the same time neglecting their culture. Sure, occasionally they visit their National Trust heritage sites and go: "Aren't we awesome?". But they believe that this exceptionalism will just last forever. They forget that they are visiting a museum. They have forgotten that you have to constantly work at earning and keeping your place in the world. The Dutch have to do that literally, so we are always reminded. But the British are taking their past achievements for granted, and have forgotten.

 

I'm afraid to tell you, your sounding very British.

 

I'm sure some would argue it's easier to keep your place in the world if you've always been lower down the pecking order.

(Tongue firmly in cheek).

 

What a load of old tripe!!

If you are so sure the UK is falling off the precipice, it does beg the question of why you come back and remain here?

Homeless rates in Netherlands on the increase...

https://nltimes.nl/2016/03/03/stats-show-big-rise-netherlands-homelessness

https://www.theguardian.com/housing...-crisis-point-all-eu-countries-except-finland

As long as it's not visible in the cities and you're not accosted by homeless or begagrs then it's acceptable to you Nexxo eh? Seems the housing crisis isn't just a UK thing either!

Trains I'll give you, can't object to the obvious fact our rail network is a joke!

Learning foreign languages, children DO learn foreign languages in our schools, I should know, I have one daughter in school and one recently left. In fact when I was at school in the 70's and 80's I had to learn two languages, German and French. I wasn't interested in either so I never made much use of them and my skills in them fell by the wayside. Shock horror eh?

As for the rest of your diatribe, again, what a load of old tripe. Don't let the door hit your fat head on the way out eh?

 

United Kingdom homeless population 2016 = 307,000 (0.46%)
Netherlands homeless population 2015 = 31,000 (0.19%)

(Ketchup)

 

TBH i'm sick to the back teeth of all this.

It's either the UK is buggered beyond buggery or it's the UK is going to be biggly big.

Neither is true. There's just hot air everywhere.

Someone get me the poop bag and a fan and i'll just sit here quietly.

 

Gonna jump in here on this particular point.

Background. I'm a forces brat: my dad was in the RAF for just shy of 25 years so we moved around more than your average "2.4 children" family. We moved to Scotland when I was nearly 5; then we moved to North Wales; then we moved to The Netherlands in '91; Germany from '92 to '94; then finally back to South Wales in '94. So I spent three years living in "foreign" countries and although we lived around lots of other British people in married quarters - and went to British schools on British military bases (or a joint base, JHQ Rheindahlen, as was the case for me when I started secondary school in '93) - we were often in German & Dutch towns and cities.

There were very few Dutch & German people we encountered who could not speak English; even if it was very bad/broken English, it was enough to understand a native English speaker. Within a week of moving to The Netherlands my dad crossed the street and was immediately stopped by a Dutch policeman who informed him that he'd just jay-walked and promptly marched him to a cash machine to pay a spot fine; it was clear my old man wasn't from around here so the policeman went straight into English, didn't even try speaking Dutch to him first. Even if we found ourselves in a bar, restaurant, shop, etc, trying to talk to someone who didn't know a word of English more often than not someone nearby could speak English and would help out. In The Netherlands especially I sometimes mistook Dutch people for being British because their English, even their accent, was indistinguishable from a native speaker. Of course we made the effort to speak Dutch and German wherever we could because not doing so was impractical and rude. We often got a much better reception from people if we'd tried to speak their language. Even if they could clearly see we weren't native speakers and they switched to English, very often just the fact that you'd tried in the first place was appreciated.

I learned foreign languages in School as well. For the first three years of comprehensive school I had to learn German and French but when I got to Year 10 I got to pick which language I'd study for GCSE. Naturally I went for German, since I already spoke some German anyway as a result of living there. It was the only GCSE in which I earned an A grade (I didn't even get an A for IT, which was a disappointment for a life-long computer nerd who now works as a software developer). If you plonked me in the middle of a German city right now, 20 years later, with no access to a translation app or even phrase book I'd be pretty f'ed. Outside of maybe polite greetings or asking for basic directions I can remember very little German. All I can remember of Dutch is that "goede dag" means "good day". I've got a bit of an advantage over my peers at school in this regard; I can probably remember more of my German education than they can purely because I lived there and spoke it regularly with native speakers - most of the people who sat a German GCSE with me can barely remember a single word. But still, put me in conversation with a native speaker and all I'd probably be able to do is ask them where the toilet is, or ask if they speak English. In contrast, I work with a Norwegian woman and she is fluent in: Norwegian (obviously), Swedish, Danish, German, and English.

We might learn the languages at school but we don't use them in our daily lives. We don't need to, because others will speak English if they want to deal with Britain or the US.

Of course this is all anecdotal evidence, but so are Nexxo's and stuartpb's posts.

 

My wife says the same. I knew that I was naturalised when someone offered me a cup of tea and my automatic response was: "Ooh, lovely!"

According to the book How Dutch are You? I am about 60% Dutch.

It's good to have realistic aspirations.

Have a look. The Netherlands is not paradise --it has its flaws like any other country. But I came away with a sense that it basically has its **** together, whereas the UK currently does not. My brother, who actually lives there, may disabuse me of such naïve notions, of course.

I came here when it suited you; I'll leave when it suits me.

And yes, I am worried about the UK. I came here originally because I loved this country (a Dutch staff member at the Mauritshuis museum of Dutch master painters told me how lucky I was to have married a British wife and live in the UK, because she loves England), and I have seen successive governments tear down and asset-strip everything that made this nation great. The UK is in trouble, believe me. Indicators of that are everywhere, if you know what you are looking at. And Brexit is only making things worse by distracting a lot of attention, time and resources from much more important issues that Brexit won't solve.

I'm almost certain that I did not say that. Housing is indeed tight in the Netherlands, to which the response has been to build more housing. Renting is generally better regulated (more council housing and housing associations) and house prices are more affordable than In the UK. I recall a time back in 1992 when the opposite was the case; it was easier to buy and rent affordable, decent housing in the UK. Not anymore.

They don't have to be. Nationalise them, and build them in the UK. You invented the train, ffs!

Kind of proves my point. You learnt the skills, but you neglected them. Because everybody speaks English, no? Whereas in the Netherlands we have little choice: Dutch is not a world language, after all, and we are bordered by three countries speaking two foreign languages.

I am not saying that this is your (as in: the British people) fault; I am saying that your geography and history resulted in a very different perspective on your place in the world that now may be an obstacle to adapting to, and thriving in a changing world.

Feel free to disagree, but mind the insults. Otherwise you are just proving my point.

 

Can't wait for the typical response to nationalising the railways.

 

They are nationised, just in the hands of other countries governments.

When they have been run by the government they've been more profitable.

That the typical response?

Or is it the old chestnut of "ohhh they were terrible" when people compare apples and pears. That one I find tedious.

Edit: double deckers like on the continent would be good but I presume our low bridges put pay to that.

 

In the Netherlands all rails are electrified, so a double-decker can be little higher than a standard train to fit under the lines (and bridges). To solve the problem the lower deck fits between the wheels.



The seats are below the platform level.



The rush hour train just before departure. At departure time it was about 3/4 full.


The seat space. Magazine for size comparison.



I should have photographed the inside carriage door handles, really: big bronze sculptural things straight out of an art gallery.

Dutch national rail runs at a slight loss, IIRC, and is supplemented by the tax payer. But it is considered vital infrastructure for the economy, so is not messed with. As such the prices are more reasonable too.

 

That's the one.

Normally people who say that conveniently ignore the decades of underfunding that happened before privatisation, sort of like what's happening with the NHS nowadays.

 

Meanwhile, after getting rid of their leader Henry Bolton for making the party look racist and xenophobic, interim leader Gerard Batten is working hard at restoring UKIP's tarnished image.

You stay classy, UKIP!

 

NHS is a given, but I always find it amazing the Conservatives are privatising the police.
I know multi nationals already hold all the cards, you could argue they always have, but for a right wing government to privatise the security forces just seems odd.

 

Makes perfect sense. If you own the police you can get away with murder --literally.

 

Privatisation is mainly used to deflect blame away from the government.