You're not wrong - This moment in history has the potential (Although, I sincerely doubt anyone in power in the US with even mildly racist tendencies will let it) to spark change. I do disagree, though, that posting here with questions isn't the done thing. If it was in front of a crowd of protesters, then yeah. That'd probably not go down well. But here? The general consensus seems to be that police brutality is bad, and that it often has a racial bias owing to institutions in America being quite racist (Whether the institutions admit it or not), and that to be a person of colour in America is to be at a significant disadvantage to a large proportion of white people in America. The point of these here forums is to have a discussion, is it not? Personally, I don't quite understand the angle from which @boiled_elephant is coming. To me, the racist overtones of the situations that lead to this current round of protests (Which, unfortunately, have given shitty people a cover to be shitty and loot stuff - Although I dare say there is some overlap were someone to draw a Venn diagram) are quite clear. Is it a police brutality issue? Yes, of course. Is it a race issue? Also yes - The two aren't mutually exclusive. Is there reason for discussion? Absolutely there is. I stand quite firmly in the "racist people shouldn't be given badges, guns, and qualified immunity (Although neither should any police officer), systemic racism needs to be shuffled off this mortal coil, America needs to get its **** together" camp. But there definitely exists a place for discussion of the issues, otherwise you get reactionary policies that really don't resolve anything. I think a lot of things require discussion (If only to educate), but there aren't many platforms for it that don't descend into name calling horseshit and boiling blood when questions are asked. Because those questions are, to some, inflammatory - Even though the asker may really, genuinely, not have realised - Because they're not in whatever group they're asking questions of, and don't understand the nuances to the words or phrases they use because they've never been used in explicit anger around them.
It might not fix all systemic racism, but even in white republican suburbs there are calls for police reform. Even if it's only policing strategy that is rethought, that's a victory. Plus it's an election year... Absolutely, but now is not the time to be dragging people backwards from the consensus, now is the time to move the discussion forward. The protests started in America, but have spread across the world. Now is not the time to discuss whether or not racism exists in a country where interracial marriage was illegal 50 years ago. Now is the time to discuss racism in the UK, and indeed across the globe, since modern industrial slavery was forged during the age of sail and thus the age of empire. As for boiled elephant, I don't mind a question or three, but a logging in to a fresh wall of text denying racism each time gets tiring after several days.
The only issue is the lack of agreement of definitions? I think that's a great example of focusing on the wrong problem. Why does the definition of the action matter more than the action? Here is another example of it. You're more worried about the term and use of the term 'microaggressions', or the term used to describe negative actions than the actions themselves. It seems like possibly you realised that yourself, but not enough not to post it. I wasn't a fan of the term in the past, but then I realised who cares, me possibly not liking a term couldn't matter less, and it's a perfect example of the 'yeah but' mentality I and others were referring to earlier, distracting from the actual problem and focusing on a side point, minimising the actual problem by moving attention away from it and causing the initial movement to lose steam whilst they deal with it. Also I'm sorry if this whole debate has made you uncomfortable, but a) it should, b) I hope you realise and acknowledge you're in a privileged position to be able to walk away from it and c) I hope it gives you some food for thought
Hey, if it works it works. Any victory in this ridiculous situation (Ridiculous in that it's 2020, this shouldn't be a thing anymore) is a victory. I'm also not sure that anyone here is being dragged away from the general consensus, on these forums in particular. I don't get the impression that these forums are maintained by a team of closeted racists, and I don't imagine the members are a bunch of closeted racists either - And given that these forums aren't really in a position to need to make any changes with regards to racism (That I'm aware of), and more over, aren't able to make governmental policy changes to squash racism where it does still exist, I feel like it's a perfectly acceptable place to discuss the ins, outs, upside downs, inside outs, of any given situation. The protests, riots, and turmoil in the US in this instance. Like I said, I don't quite understand the points being made, to my mind I feel like it's an element of white privilege. I don't mean that as an insult, just a statement of opinion. Every white person is guilty of partaking in it because the overwhelming majority of us don't even recognise when it's being used to our benefit. As for the walls of text.. I mean, this isn't something that can really be discussed in eight second soundbites.
Absolutely spot on, George. You've just saved me typing out a longer post than this one Your final paragraph there, in particular, is really important.
I didn't mean that people were being dragged back from the consensus, rather that the discussion was. It's the time to progress understanding, not defend it from tired old arguments. I would agree about white privilege...but with regards to the wall of text, if he's innocent as fresh snow, genuinely curious, and wants to learn, S'ingTFU and listening is a far better strategy than talking much, much more than anyone else.
Ah, my misunderstanding then. I agree in many situations that sitting, listening, and processing the discourse is one of the least intrusive ways to learn about hot button topics - But I do like to think that, generally, BT forums are a place where questions can be asked, narratives questioned, and both sides can be looked at. Although that does tend to lead to some heated arguments. As mentioned, though, I don't quite understand where these questions are coming from.
@boiled_elephant while I can't speak for others, the reason I'm engaging in debate with you is because I see someone who on at least some level I am concerned about the wellbeing of who appears to be headed down a disturbing path, and I want to help. On the subject of critical thought: one of the absolute most vital component of that - possibly the fundamental one - is the ability to research. It is impossible to reach a correct conclusion from bad data using purely self-consistent logical and rational thinking. Garbage In, Garbage Out. While others can help you with gathering sources, reliance on that makes you vulnerable to other collecting biased sources, then feeding them to you to allow you to draw your own logically consistent but fundamentally incorrect conclusions. The key skills of Hitchens, Dawkins, Fry, etc is not so much in the bravery to ask difficult questions or the skill to engage in debate, but the months and years of research they do beforehand in an attempt to smash their ideas against the rocks of reality and see what breaks. It's not in playing Devil's Advocate against the status quo that stands them apart, but in playing it against their own ideas.
I take that point and will attempt to work harder at that. I'm relatively new to the process of critical thinking and was hopelessly enamoured with lazy groupthink for most of my young adult life. This forum is one of the places I come to smash my ideas against a rock. I enjoy it and feel it's important, but I recognise the possibility that it may be a little self-serving when I'm the only one gaining anything from the discussion. @lirathael I know I've made rather a mess of explaining my thoughts, and diluted them in a large volume of text, precisely because I was kind of thinking out loud, weighing different possibilities and writing on the fly. My main anxieties about the BLM protests and subsequent global response have not been so much about the facts being wrong, as the facts not being part of our process. A lot of people I know with basically no research, experience or knowledge - like me - have taken one look at the situation and gone "yep, we need a revolution, this is huge". They may well be right. The lack of processing or any need for research on their own part, the presumption and lack of critical thinking, is what has been making me antsy. It's this that I was trying to probe into with my endless questioning of facts and speculations of alternatives. "What do we know, and how do we know it?" This information needs to be readily available, condensed and clear, so that when someone like me has doubts, they can be allayed. Sorry, I said I was leaving, but I'm a masochist. I'm really done now.
