E.U: Leave or Stay? Your thoughts.

I mean, a smart politician would put the proviso that seeking EU membership on the moment of leaving the UK as a condition for triggering any means to leave the UK.. Or even just doing that before triggering any independence stuff. Y'know, how the UK should have got its ducks in a row before triggering article 50. Instead of doing the dumb thing and not having a plan for negotiations after A50 was triggered. And having, instead, months of infighting, a general election, and a global embarrassment being made of the country, and its constituents.

 

I doubt that the EU would refuse membership (although the usual conditions would apply). Some Scots will vote Yes because they're pissed about being dragged out of the EU. Some because they just don't want to be dragged down by England. Some will be hard-core nationalists. Either way, like Brexit, it will be a highly emotive decision, considered worth the consequences.

 

The SNP have said that they want an independent Scotland to join the EU, but it's not something that they can guarantee, especially if independence was to be declared unilaterally.

I think there's a non-zero probability of the EU refusing to recognise an independent Scotland were independence to be declared without a mandate from the UK. I'm sorry, but I'm really tired tonight and maybe not reading things properly, but I'm not sure what your second sentence onwards is in reply to? There are loads of different reasons for voting Yes but what I was trying to get at was that a large number of swing voters (who voted No last time but have indicated that they would vote Yes now) have changed their mind purely on the basis of EU membership. For that reason, if you're trying to persuade those swing voters to vote Yes in a non-sanctioned referendum then it's very difficult when EU membership is seen to be contingent on doing everything officially and by the book, which means Westminster allowing it.

It might just be that we're talking past each other here, and I apologise if that's the case. It's been a very long day

 

there is also a small but not-zero chunk of the SNP for whom independence means being free from both the the UK and EU.

'but it's only a small minority'

...and so was the blukip contingent of the Conserviatives, until it wasn't. And should IndyScot happen, well without the common enemy of westminster to unite them, that could fracture the SNP and/or be the next big political argument in Scotland.

'It's an internal matter for Spain the UK, it's not for the EU to take sides'

 

That's cool; I've had a long day here also, so I am probably less concise and to the point than I could be, now that reminds me come to think of it people often tell me about how I can ramble on but really I think that that's a bit unfair because I am just being comprehensive but anyhow...


I'm basically saying (I think) that like with Brexit the vote will be emotive and without much rational consideration about the long-term. With Brexit, people believed that the UK could simply leave the EU. With IndyRef2 people will believe that Scotland can simply join the EU. Even swing voters may now be galvanised by Westminster's antics to just GTFO and hope for the best.

Oh, and more "taking back control": thread unroll.

 

To aim for independence leaving a Union to later join another Union.

Yeah, sounds like a plan.

 

Of course nothing is guaranteed until the ink is dry (and even then, not unbreakably so) - But if you (The royal you, not you specifically) were to be smart about it I'm sure that an independence referendum with a much more clearly set list of objectives (IE: Yes, we want to try and leave the UK, but on the condition that we can also join the EU in short order) and seeing what ducks can be arranged before pulling your trousers down and farting in the direction of the entity you're trying to gain independence from strikes me as a much more viable route than the UK's Brexit approach. Which appears to have been '**** your pants, trousers down, fart loudly in the EU's direction, pull your pants up, **** yourself again, and trip over the trousers still around your ankles' more so than arranging ducks in any kind of sensible fashion.

Was Brexit destined to be a shitshow? Absolutely. Could it have been less of a shitshow? Also absolutely. But that'd have required some competence and truth from politicians, so.

 

Hmm, it's almost as if you are drawing a false equivalence here. Very unlike you.

 

Back to the usual "laugh at the incompetence of Westminster" program for a moment...

The port in Dover won't even be allowed to apply for funds to prepare for Brexshite infrastructure until later this month

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...rt-still-awaiting-brexit-infrastructure-funds

 

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Hundreds of posts in this thread regarding Ni, Scotland, Wales, Gibraltar etc regarding borders... then the Govt goes and puts a border in Kent

 

Boris is just on a different level to us all.

 

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That pun is perfect. Just... perfect.

 

Oh very well done that man. Very well done indeed.

 

If it's independence long term I don't see the false equivalence.

Unless of-course, the historical track record and trend of the European Union of gaining more and more influence and control over its member states, changes.

Unions are usually not about less but more. It's the nature of the beast.

 

It actually gets even funnier if you read the transcript of a Boris speech on 3rd February 2020...

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-in-greenwich-3-february-2020