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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Discussion in 'Serious' started by Gareth Halfacree, 24 Feb 2022.

  1. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    It did seem to trigger a memory when they were talking of Russian protest laws about those bits of the crime bill they tagged on to essentially make you out to be a terrorist if, ya know, you fancy protesting some corruption funded crap with a placard in a group of one.

    What happened to that, I know the Lords knocked it back - not sure if they've smuggled it in while we're distracted.
     
  2. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    They did. and they did.

     
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  3. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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  4. Byron C

    Byron C Multimodder

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    I know this is a cold and inhumane way to look at the situation...

    He hasn't directly attacked a NATO or EU country. If we, or any NATO member, put boots on the ground in Ukraine unprovoked then we become the aggressor. At that point it's pretty much game over for all of us. Even if there were no nuclear strikes, it would almost certainly be a bloody and devastating world war.
     
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  5. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    It's not cold dude. It would be cold of you to not care, and it would be cold if you were doing it. Fact is you are not, and war (aside all of the horrors of which I think we can agree we have all been well educated on here) is also about logic, tactics and everything else aside from human suffering and horror.

    Putin has done something absolutely vile here. However, as I have stressed so have we. Our media and politicians buttered it up very well just as Putin will be trying to do in Russia. Fact is unless you start holding politicians fully accountable, in a non hypocritical way, or stopping them*? there is nothing we can do. As it's not our decision. At no time do I ever remember the UK calling a vote from the people on whether we wanted to start a war or invade a country. I mean yeah, polls are carried out, but certainly not in the decision making.

    That is why I hate politicians and political BS. Because it's all that. "Democracy?" how? if most stuff is out of our hands and we have to wait 4/8 years to even attempt to change them then that is total BS.

    I know you said that certain politicians are about the people, and care etc, well I tell you what mate at no point in my life have I ever felt cared about. People making the decisions? well Rees Mogg (who I despise) recently shifted 40m was it? how can you allow people with that much money to know how the people under him feel? or how much they struggle? and why would he give a toss about some Johnny Foreigner right?. It all comes down to "I'm alright, Jack".

    A wee while ago (I don't remember the dates or who it was, Essex? IIRC?) someone killed a politician. "ATTACK AGAINST DEMOCRACY !" and vilify him right? that's what we should do? Yeah well see, I don't think I fully agree.

    If someone tried to screw you over or attack you you would fight back right? well why does it feel that with politicians and people running the country that they are completely beyond reproach? why do I feel that there should have been something in place for Boris to carry on pretending and lying yet still being the prime minister? surely there is a back stop in place to stop crap like that right?

    No. Absolutely not. As I also mentioned the Queen just gave Blair a knighthood right? IDK if the campaign to stop it was successful but I doubt it. What message does that send to people? There is no difference between what Putin is doing now and what happened in Iraq. None, zip, zero, nada. Blair went in, if you could really even give him the slightest piece of the benefit of the doubt, on an assumption. There was absolutely no way AT ALL for him to prevent actual on the ground evidence because he had none. So he messed up right?

    If I got stopped speeding in my car (if I had one) I would be fined and get penalty points. It's called being punished. How have we punished him in the slightest for all of the blood he spilled, British lives he lost, over an assumption or a hunch?

    Yet if someone actually stepped up and had the balls to punish him for it? there would be outrage.

    What I am saying is over the course of my life (48 years now) all I have seen is the wrong messages, wrong signs, and it just continually getting worse. Power does that to people. So do all politicians crave power? of course they do. Every single day I see them committing perjury, swapping sides in order to maintain that control and power, changing jobs when it really gets on top and ETC, but at no point is any one ever punished for crimes, wrongdoing and lying.

    We call all of this democracy. I think the real name for it is bull ****.

    Something needs to change. Something just really has to change. Even recently Boris pulled us all out of a lockdown and set us all free with a nasty virus going around. Why? because he is a doctor and thought it was safe to do so? or simply because he did it in desperation to try and get people back on his side after being caught out for lying, being a hypocrite and breaking the laws he set?

    It won't get any better. Each time someone sets a new bar it never will.
     
  6. LennyRhys

    LennyRhys Fan Fan

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    It's complicated and extremely volatile. The last thing NATO wants to do is give Russia cause to start splitting the atom - which I don't doubt for a second Putin is willing to do. He's off his rocker.

    I'd love to see battalions of allied forces deployed on Ukrainian soil to help these poor beleaguered souls defend (and reclaim) their country, but as Byron C said, any physical conflict will ignite a full scale world war.

    I hate that these people are dying for their country, and I hate that we (also civilians) are utterly powerless to meaningfully help those who are laying down their lives. Providing aid to refugees is all well and good, but you can't give aid to corpses. :grr:
     
  7. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

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    Most of that aid wouldn't even reach them.

    https://news.sky.com/story/captain-...r-concerns-raised-about-its-accounts-12537547

    However, its audited accounts show just £160,000 was given away in charitable grants while £240,000 was spent on management and fundraising costs.

    "management".
     
  8. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

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  9. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    When there's €500m on the way from the EU budget, it'll do some good.
     
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  10. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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  11. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    The UN can't even agree on what to have for lunch most of the time, by this is probably as unanimous as it ever gets. Even if it's little more than 'thoughts and prayers'.
     
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  12. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    Well if North Korea backed Russia it must be above board.
     
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  13. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    EU back Ukraine's bid to become a member and now Georgia are immediately going to apply.

    Georgia. That'll be interesting to see how it's received.
     
  14. Krikkit

    Krikkit All glory to the hypnotoad! Super Moderator

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    https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/0...son-in-ukraines-south-falls-to-russian-forces
    Kherson has fallen, sounds like they're going straight to puppet regime like Donbas etc.

    Also sounds like it's a real mess...

    Obviously since the invention of artillery this has been happening, but it really hits home when you lay it out that way...
     
  15. Byron C

    Byron C Multimodder

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    I don't have time to reply to every single thing, because I don't have the time, but...

    No, you don't. Chances are that you see the ones at the top, the prominent members of the parties, the government ministers, the ones who make it into the media. Those people aren't representative of every single MP out there, which is why I still say that to tar every single MP - or even local councillor - with the same brush is grossly unfair to the ones who put in so much work on behalf of their constituents.

    Which tells me that the outright corruption that you're seeing in government now, or the lack of accountability over the Iraq war, is only a symptom of the true disease. This is a tautology, but if the means by which we hold those in power accountable are not effective then we cannot hold those in power accountable. Meaning... we come back to the fact that not all politicians are corrupt careerists, but that the system they inhabit does very little to stop those who are corrupt careerists.

    If I had a magic wand and I could make just one change to our system of government, I would bring in true proportional representation. Nothing else, just PR in elections. If we can't have PR then it'd be the breakup of the UK.
     
  16. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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  17. adidan

    adidan Guesswork is still work

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    It has only dawned on me now that actually the UK has a de facto Russian puppet government.
     
  18. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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    As i said...

     
  19. RedFlames

    RedFlames ...is not a Belgian football team

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  20. Anfield

    Anfield Multimodder

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    Would it end very badly if we put troops on the ground in Ukraine to shoot the invaders? Absolutely yes.

    So what are we doing instead?

    The idea seems to be that we pressure all the Russian Oligarchs to turn their backs on Putin and send him into retirement....

    The problem however is that this approach is extremely short sighted:
    Because the very same Oligarchs we are applying financial pressure to have been so deeply entrenched in the power structures of Russia that they will also choose the successor of Putin and it is basically dead certain that they won't choose anyone who will be better for the world in the long run...

    And no, I don't really have any better options in mind either, each one falls victim to damned if you do, damned if you don't.
     

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