1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Other Hi-fi and AV junkies anonymous

Discussion in 'General' started by Mister_Tad, 16 Jun 2020.

  1. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

    Joined:
    26 Aug 2014
    Posts:
    5,197
    Likes Received:
    2,433
    And, then above that, there are the expensive ones...
     
  2. spolsh

    spolsh Multimodder

    Joined:
    4 Feb 2012
    Posts:
    1,559
    Likes Received:
    821
    ... oh, you mean the "high-end" of budget kit ?
     
    Mr_Mistoffelees likes this.
  3. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    I’ve come to learn that there’s only a very loose correlation between cost and outright performance when it comes to hifi/AV tbh, beyond being competent enough to cover the basics, and I think the sliding scale stops well short of the thousands. Beyond that it’s just personal preference.
     
    adidan and Arboreal like this.
  4. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    14,851
    Likes Received:
    3,654
    Personally I would never spend over a grand on a set of speakers. The great thing about HIFI is the bargains you can get. I paid £750 for those M105s. Less than half price. They were new, too.

    When I say 2-3k I am obviously involving larger floor standing speakers in that too. With multiple drivers, capable of much bigger sound. If I ever did spend 3k on a set of large floor standers? I would expect them to sound better than lesser ones. Gotta remember you can drop 40k on a set of floor standers quite easily.

    But bookshelf speakers? yeah, up to a grand. If there is any difference above that I would be hard pressed to hear it, unless of course they were a different type of speaker with a different signature sound. Which is where a lot of people will differ. My biggest "look for" is vocals, and mid to upper mid range for those vocals. Which I will sacrifice some warmth for.
     
  5. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    Depends on where your money is going though. I see it as a set of sliding scales.

    You have frequency range, SPL and THD sliders which are your factors for "performance", and then you have everything else: brand cachet, materials/fit/finish, aftercare/dealer and I'm sure plenty of others.

    So exploring this, let's say each scale goes from 1x to 3-5x, and your base speaker price is £10.

    If you want a purely functional speaker that covers most of the frequency range (4x/5), at moderate SPL (3x/5) and with low THD (4x/5), you're looking at a 10x4x3x4= £480 speaker. Which sounds plausible for a fugly DIY speaker that sounds quite excellent indeed.

    If you want it from a prestige brand in fancy materials and finish, from a major dealer, then you're looking at another bunch of 3x's, so your £480 turns into 480x3x3x3 = £12960. Also entirely plausible.

    It also means that by virtue of the fomula, a £10k speaker doesn't necessarily have to sound any better than a £1k speaker, if the money is going elsewhere into it. And that also doesn't mean it's poor value, because value is different to a bunch of different people.

    I think I may have accidentally cracked the entire hifi industry in a simple formula.
     
    Last edited: 2 Mar 2022
    trigger and Byron C like this.
  6. jinq-sea

    jinq-sea 'write that down in your copy book' Super Moderator

    Joined:
    15 Oct 2012
    Posts:
    8,823
    Likes Received:
    721
    ^ give that man a cookie
     
    Byron C likes this.
  7. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Lover of bit-tech Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

    Joined:
    4 Dec 2007
    Posts:
    17,066
    Likes Received:
    6,610
    £4,800?

    EDIT:
    Ah, I missed the bit about the base speaker price being £10. So, aye, 10×4×3×4=£480.
     
  8. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    Ah yes. I started with 100 as a baseline but the formula didn't work.
     
  9. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    14,851
    Likes Received:
    3,654
    Eureka ! :D

    I know that my cabinets are MDF. Which seems almost criminal. However, I also know that being 1.5" thick and having two internal braces she ain't getting much stiffer (fnarr). TBH? it is the finish you are paying for. Well, and of course the drivers. But mostly you are paying for R&D. Most of which is a pretty common formula now until you start to get into more exotic designs. You have those B&Ws correct? the ones with the rounded top and bullet style tweeter? or do I have you mixed up? Apologies for not checking, I get you and another member confused because you both love your hifi.... Any way, as I said with the Revels in particular *a lot* of time, money and research went into that wave guide. Thankfully Harman group seem to have an awful lot of money so you could argue it was well spent. And it's a pretty incredible wave guide tbh. It basically means that you can off axis the speaker as much as you please and still get the same high frequency response and performance. And yeah, I fully expected you to know what I meant without saying some of that......

    And yeah, I can totally understand why someone (if they could afford to do so, obs) would spend 40k on a set of speakers. Because let's face it you are not only buying a set of speakers but a work of art at the same time. I've always limited myself to a grand. And, that limit has raised two fold to what it used to be (£500).

    That said if I had the money? I have no doubt that limit would raise significantly. Because obviously all of the science and other stuff be damned, some uber high end speakers are literally like I said, works of art. With exotic materials befitting said works of art.

    The secret formula? spend as much as you want to, really. If it makes you happy and all :)
     
  10. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    Correctamundo - B&W 800 Series.

    I actually ended up on these not necessarily because of performance, but because a long time ago in a hifi shop far far away I was shopping for speakers with a somewhat more limited budget than I have today, and these were front and centre on a pedestal, both literally and aspirationally, and were similarly aspirationally priced. They sounded magnificent and I coveted them from that point onwards, deciding that one day they will be mine.

    Now I'm fortunate to be in a position where they can be (or rather, their equivalent successors), so that was really the only choice, regardless of whether there are other things out there are technically "better" or more cost effective. They still sound wonderful, of course. And they're likely to be my forever speakers because of it too, and if I ever had to replace them for some reason, I'm not sure I'd even shop around for alternatives versus just going for the same again in their latest D3/D4 guise by default.
     
    Byron C likes this.
  11. Boscoe

    Boscoe Electronics extraordinaire.

    Joined:
    5 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    69
    HiFi gets very touchy very quickly due to the high amounts of money and emotion enthusiasts put into the hobby. And hobby it is, HiFi collecting that is - not the music.

    The HiFi industry is aligned to selling narratives and strange objects to hook the middle aged man in. This does not result in good speakers. This alignment perpetuates HiFi technology from the past and celebrates it (vinyl, tubes and large passive speakers). All of these technologies are fundamentally obsolete.

    I'm an electronic engineer and first built speakers when I was 13. I worked as a junior engineer at a high end audio manufacturer a few years ago.

    If you want good speakers buy good quality active speakers like the AVI HiFi ADM10s. They are the last pair of speaker you will ever need to buy. I can go into the reasons, it's all very sensible but I don't have the time right now.
     
  12. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    14,851
    Likes Received:
    3,654
    So this morning my sub came. I got up around 10:30 (sleep is terrible ATM). Went out onto the landing for a wee and mum yelled up "It's outside in the pissing rain". I knew it was coming on a pallet...

    Now thankfully it was incredibly well enshrined in black clingfilm so it was bone dry. However I immediately noticed something odd. There were two boxes. "Ah, maybe they package the woofer separately to make it easier to lift !". So I brought in the woofer. Yup, that's a woofer.

    [​IMG]

    Go back outside to retrieve the box (cabinet). Go to lift it? jesus F-ing C. WTF is going on? heaviest MDF cabinet I have ever lifted. When I got it in and unpacked it however it made sense. Derp.

    [​IMG]

    So basically I paid £250 inc. For two £239.99 woofers and a cabinet. Now normally I would contact them and let them know about the mistake but tbh? I've proper done my back and groin in. Like, really badly. As such I am just going to wait to see if they contact me about it. No qualms about them having it collected or ETC but yeah, I am not going out of my way to try and post back an almost 20kg woofer.

    Any way I have stripped the cabinet. Pulled off the carbon vinyl coating. It's not like, 3M vinyl it's pretty thick. I have also began removing the carpet. Basically the top, front and side areas will get this.

    [​IMG]

    I bought these today too.

    [​IMG]

    Mainly at first for trimming the veneer properly, but I am going to round off the lip edges. Like the one that goes around the top, down the back, to the front etc. That will get sealed and then painted black.

    I've removed the port ducts, sanded off the terrible tacky lettering and glued back on the 5 corners they had snapped by over doing the screws.

    [​IMG]

    Those will be satin black. The only miscalculation I made was that I thought I could cut my plate amp into the back. However, the ducts go around the cabinet and there is like a 5" gap in the back. So if I cut the amp in there I would seal off the ducts which I don't want to do. This means it needs to be mounted into the bottom back right corner, meaning I will need legs to get it off the ground so I can plug in the cables. These will be made on a lathe, 1" at the cabinet end tapered down and then M8 at both ends so I can bolt them to the cabinet and put spikes in.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Going to be quite a lot of work but that ebony is really sexy. The cabinet is incredibly well made too. The top and bottom are 1/2", but that is doubled so the entire structure is 1" thick. The ducts are also very clever, and really long. I wondered how they had managed to tune it to the low 30s in such a small enclosure.
     
    IanW likes this.
  13. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    14,851
    Likes Received:
    3,654
    Oh and those badges are going, too.
     
  14. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    Selling narratives… otherwise known as marketing and not unique in any way to the hifi industry.

    One shouldn’t “just buy this sort of speaker” and be done with it any more than one should do for for a car, clothes, fridge, a laptop, furniture… and so on. Wouldn’t the world be boring if we were all very sensible all did the same thing for the same reasons.
     
  15. IanW

    IanW Grumpy Old Git

    Joined:
    2 Aug 2003
    Posts:
    9,132
    Likes Received:
    2,629
    FYI - If you need one, there's a beginner level lathe at Lidl from today for £60.
     
    Vault-Tec likes this.
  16. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

    Joined:
    26 Aug 2014
    Posts:
    5,197
    Likes Received:
    2,433
    I agree, no one type of speaker is right for everyone. As for "They are the last pair of speaker(sic) you will ever need to buy." HiFi buying is based on want, not need.
     
    Last edited: 3 Mar 2022
  17. Boscoe

    Boscoe Electronics extraordinaire.

    Joined:
    5 Jan 2010
    Posts:
    1,127
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trust me, if you just want a 2.0 or 2.1 system for listening to music, you can't get much better than these. If you want to play with tech then they are not for you.

    Active speakers are better for the consumer in every single measurable way (for music, cost and usability) but terrible for the HiFi industry. Because everything has to be designed and made for each other (amplifier, crossover and speakers) the upgrade path of selling more junk isn't possible. Look at any other speaker market and they are all active systems.

    I can't believe I'm referencing WhatHiFi but they hit the nail on the head. Think about what are say in respect of the HiFi companies' bottom line.

    This is probably the order of importance when looking at a HiFi system:
    1. Good quality drive units. Copper in the pole piece, generous ventilation, strong motor and paper cone if the crossover is passive (metal cones are gnarly in break up).
    2. Speaker placement and room acoustics.
    3. Active crossovers.
    4. High power amplifier. Higher power gives the dynamic range needed due to the high crest factor of audio. This is especially important with passive speakers.

    Everything from now on doesn't matter as long as it fundamentally works.
    5. Source quality. MP3 is fine.
    6. Cables.
    7. DACs.

    I know you will say you can hear the difference between FLAC and MP3 but you can't. If you can it's in your head, the recording or the mastering of the track.

    Sure there are differences in DACs but the sound effects they differ on are about 1000 times quieter than the noise in the amplifier so it would literally be like trying to hear a person speak while standing next to a jet engine at full tilt.

    Cables are obviously a scam.

    From an engineer's perspective, some of the things audio companies claim is on the level of flat earth conspiracies.
     
  18. Mr_Mistoffelees

    Mr_Mistoffelees The Bit-Tech Cat. New Improved Version.

    Joined:
    26 Aug 2014
    Posts:
    5,197
    Likes Received:
    2,433
    "What I say is right, what you think or say is wrong."

    Seen it so many times on the WhatHiFi forum...
     
  19. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Will work for nuts Super Moderator

    Joined:
    27 Dec 2002
    Posts:
    14,069
    Likes Received:
    2,425
    You've entirely missed the point here.

    I can think of one immediate reason I personally wouldn't want those speakers - they just look bland, boring, not so far as "ugly" but certainly nothing interesting. And before you say, "but speakers are for listening to and not looking at", give me some invisible speakers and I won't consider looks. But unless you buy your clothing, car, furniture without a care in the world of what colour it is, the argument doesn't wash.

    (And good reason number two is that AVI AFAIK is completely defunct as a company, but that's beside the point)

    You're looking at it entirely from a, one-dimensional, engineer's perspective. Most people, even engineers, are also humans, with many dimensions.

    I'm not trying to call you out here, I just think you should be acknowledging that choice is a good thing - so you can do you, but that doesn't mean that anyone doing something else is wrong.
     
    Last edited: 3 Mar 2022
  20. Vault-Tec

    Vault-Tec Green Plastic Watering Can

    Joined:
    30 Aug 2015
    Posts:
    14,851
    Likes Received:
    3,654
    I'd love one but no space. Hence buying that trimmer and not a full on Bosch router. Small hand tools can be easily hidden.

    For lathe work my friend has a full size pro lathe, so he does that for me.

    Last night I bought 10 sheets of deadening mat. May as well do it properly.

    Edit. Shot some pics. This is the deadening. I mainly want to use it on the duct planes as they are 1/2". I mean this is fine, as most ports are just 3mm plastic or what not, but hey might as well.

    [​IMG]

    Cost me £12 for ten sheets. More than enough.

    This is where I got to yesterday. The vinyl is all off and I started seeing how the carpet would come off.

    [​IMG]

    I will scrape down the glue a bit with a carbide scraper, then level with the new glue. Side frontal shot. Here you can see how well built it is.

    [​IMG]

    I gotta admit I was surprised. I was half expecting to find particle board tbh. This pic shows the ducts and how long they are. Very clever, as the cabinet is very small for a 15". The long ducts are what tunes it down nice and low.

    [​IMG]

    You can also see why I can't put the amp in the back.
     
    Last edited: 3 Mar 2022
    IanW likes this.

Share This Page