rantage: Why isnt surround sound ever as good as two radios?

This is a rant. Expect it. dont deny it, embrace it

We all know of the surround-sound tech speak, and what is supposed to happen but doesnt. I'm here to question the validity of TRUE surround sound, in the commersial market:

Step back from this post, get two radios, tune both of them in to the same station and stick them in oposit ends of the room. If your room isnt too big or your radios too poor quality, you should notice that the surround sound feeling from that setup is far superior to that which you will get even at a cinema boasting the latest and greatest teq-nolo-gee.

You may wonder why this happens. I too wondered, for a little while at least, then I came up with my theory:

The radios are out of synch : some how, in some way, the radios are out of synch, in such a way as to provide an accurate rendition of surroundsound. This madness actually makes sense in *my* head : sound waves are not linear ... that is to say that sound does not sound the same from every angle: it does not reach the ear at the same time, it is not the same volume etc.

perhaps someone can explain this to me, perhaps someone can tell me why I can never find true surround...

perhaps you know what Im talking about... please save my sanity for another day

 

I've pondered this a few times - i concluded exactly what you said, somehow it sounds much better than even the best surround sound.

 

speed of the waves means that will take a split second longer for the further radio away from the source to pick up and convert & transmit, and this accounts for part of the time taken for the sound to reach you ears maybe??
complete guesswork there tho
- M@ (gone to test your theory )

 

OK, now i gotta find 2 radios that work in my mess of an apartment. I'm intrigued. Of course, I'm half deaf, so would it sound wonky to me (80-90% loss in left ear. right works fine)? Regular stereo sounds kinda funny to me.

 

Surely that's part of it because on higher end equipment you can adjust the delay of the front/center/rear channels to compensate for their location in the room.

And the whole reason for surround sound is to be able and have discrete audio on each individual speaker. With 2 stereos you simply have stereo. Yes, it has a surround sounding effect but it doesn't have discrete channels. And to have good surround sound, the audio engineers or whoever the ones are that create the media have to encode it right.

Alot of times they only use the surround channels for simple background effects or for the multi-million dollar explosion scene of a movie but not for the entire film, which is what disappoints people and makes them think surround sound sucks. It's not the surround's fault but the peoples who should have taken advantage of it.

But I also get what you mean about the stereo. The particular stereo I had in my bedroom for the longest time (A simple Sharp receiver w/3-disc changer) had some of the best sounding stereo I'd ever heard. If you were off to the side it sounded good, but right in the center it was amazing - felt like you were really surrounded even though there were only 2 speakers.

 

I found the use of two 2.1 systems to be the best for adjustable 4.2 surround sound. (with the computer) All of the speakers can be adjusted to perfection.

It's better than my 5.1 setup that I have now.

 

I'm guessing it's going to be the slight delay that makes it sound like it's surrounding people. It's used in music with instruments, so that one sounds like it's filling your whole head with music rather than being at a specific point.

But as earlier stated, the point of surround sound is not so that everything sounds like it's around you - but so that film makers and place a sound at a specific point. They could easily make it sound like it's all around you if they want, but they just don't.


Well, I'm guessing, but it makes sense this end...

... be safe

 

Here are the reasions why it sounds better to have two 2 speaker radios insted of one 4 speaker radio:

Reasion 1: your brain thrives on difference, when two things are the same, or atleast represented as the same, your brain will take action on two parts: first it will combine the two, making it seem as though it's just one; and second, if it's persistant enough and does not have enough varrience, then your brain will tune it out completely.

Reasion 2: contemplate the placement of speakers in a 4 speaker setup, two on the right, two on the left, both sides playing preatty much the same thing, except for the random sound here and there that is unique to one channel. Now, your brain only has one way to obtain audio information from one side of your head, the ear. Think about how your ears are positioned, and how the "flap" is orientated, it makes it harder for your right ear to hear anything positioned to your rear left for example. Now then, when we combine this together with reasion 1, we get a slightly clearer picture why a 4 speaker radio isn't as good, but we're not done yet.

Reasion 3: slight variences in speaker design, manufacturing, and wear in general mean that even two radio's, identical in every way, can and do sound different. Your brain picks up on these differences. And the same could be said about the speakers in a 4 speaker radio as well, but heres where the slight differences get enhanced and become really noticable. What I stated previously about the speakers is true about the actual electircal equipment in the radio, meaning that again, no two radio's will ever sound exactly the same, thus creating a difference that your brain is more than eager to pick up on. The difference is further enhanced by electircal noise in your house's electrical system, slight radio-wave differences that sometimes can be in very localized areas, and many other factors could come into play, but I won't bore you any more on this one.

Reasion 4: think about how the radio's are positioned, the one in front of you is positioned correctly, left speaker to left ear, right speaker to right ear. Now, think about the one behind you, it's backwards to that, thus left speaker to right ear, right speaker to left ear. Again, this creats a more "full" sound, enabling both your left and right ears to hear all sounds properly, and better, insted of having only some sounds being produced on each side. Your brain likes this, and it makes it very hard for it to "tune" it out (reffer back to reasion 1) or even combine the sounds.



That, is why. Period.

 

Let me shed a bit more light on things. First off if you have ever been to a concert (especially symphonies) you will notice that the building is design to not echo. It's designed to spread the sound evenly over the building and then stop.

That being said music is very non-surround sound. They play infront of you, not behind you. So if you're talking about "surround sound" for music, you best buy two speakers.

Surround sound speakers for music are designed to act as a concert hall, in otherwords very little sound comming at you from behind. So when you put a radio infront of you and behind you of course it sounds more like "surround sound", you're hearing the same thing at the same volume from both front and back.

Surround sound is much better for things like movies and games for dimensional sound. Thats how it should be used.

 

Hey, my 2.1 setup plays EAX games and it sounds awesome. The only thing I would hear differently is the subtle differences in foreground and background effects. Music on the other hand is straight left or right channel.

Movies are much like games. You'll pick up on foreground effects differently than background effects. Thats why THEATERS have speakers along the walls from the front of the room to the rear.

-owned-

 

I'm puzzled by this thread. First.. playing two stereo sound sources; one in front, one behind, is not surround sound anyway, plus.. playing a stereo music signal on any surround sound system will not result in surround either. If it's a decent surround sound system, it will just be using the front stereo pair. If there is no surround info, then it will just be stereo.

The rear and centre speakers will only be used when there is information intended to be played via these speakers.

What you are referring to is just a 4 speaker stereo setup, not surround.

 

Not completely correct.

If you use Dolby Prologic II on a decent AV Processor or AV Reviever you can get 5.1 surround out of two stereo channels.

This can be used with music or movies.

Some people like listen to music in PLII, personally I prefer plain stereo.

http://dolby.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/d...WRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9NzQmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=

 

True... I realise this, but normally, you wouldn't be getting the same signal from both front and rear channels to make the whole issue of this thread relevant. If you want 4 speaker stereo, then surround should be off in my opinion. If watching a movie with surround on, then it's highly unlikely that you will be getting the same sound source from both front and rear channels anyway.

 

wel in the extra distance , lets say 10 mtres , the wave would get there 3.3x10^-8 seconds later. No brain could pick that up.

you have to bear in mind the speed of the wave, this being 300000000 ms^-1

 

At least not in a way that is easily discerned. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the same sound is coming from a different source.

 

I don't think you are right guys, a very large preportion of frequnecies we hear in music or movies is effected by the room (listening area), individual room dimentions govern room modes or nodes (peaks and nulls) and surfaces change reflections which can add even more time delay.

Check out these few links, especially the first one!!!!!!

http://www.gbaudio.co.uk/data/time.htm

http://www.hwscience.com/physics/sound/rooms/sld008.htm

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/javax/sound/sampled/ReverbType.html

You will see that the rooms differ in size, object makeup and contents this does have a effect on sound.

 

Most surround sound receivers and processors can add timing/delay to the speakers for movie sound tracks, this can be done in distance (10th of a meter) or ms.

BTW all surround sound systems from the very cheap all in systems to fully fledged theater should always be calibrated and balanced using a SPL meter.

 

spl meter?

 

Of course the brain can discern that. Close your eyes.... cliick your fingers right in front of your face... now keep your eyes closed, and move your fingers one inch to the left and click them again. You can HEAR that they've moved. How does this work? Your brain measures the difference in time and it takes to travel to one ear, and the equally minute pressure differences compared to the other. If your brain can detect the MINUTE phase differences from 3 inches away, I doubt 10 metres is much of a problem for it

 

Your ears are very sensitive to minute differences in sounds. I'm no expert on the subject despite my housemate (Harry Bo on talkaudio, I guess you know him micb) frequently trying to educate me A simple example of the ears' ability to pick up even really low energy sound though would have to be the simple crystal radio.