One thing to bear in mind as well: many of the problems women have result from cultural and tribal traditions that aren't necessarily part of Islam. That's not to say women don't have a different status than men as a Muslim. However, a lot of the harsher and lethal punishments such as the above are traditions that need to be called out and abolished.
Exactly. If anything, outside condemnation only strengthens the bigots and torturers in places like Pakistan since they can then label the critics of their savagery as unpatriotic foreign lackeys. Western governments should steer clear from meddling in internal social issues of foreign states, however perverse and savage they are. The positive in this story (if there can be one!) is that the outrage began inside Pakistan, by Pakistan people and politicians who were also outraged by such cruelty. As long as there at least some internal dissent and outcry from the peoples themselvse then there is always hope.
Don't be ridiculous, of course they can. You need only to look at our recent success in Iraq and Afghanistan turning them into fun loving countries.
I have noticed a few guys & girls that amazingly [size=-10](to me anyway)[/size] will rather support, defend, or just ignore abusive behaviour like this to a supposed friend, than dare stand up to the abusers. I can understand people being scared when they are alone, but when there is a group of say 10 relatives that are fully aware of the situation, talking to the abuser about why fighting is bad, why do some turn to the abused girl and tell her not to piss him off anymore and the rest just sit on the fence It also amazes me that these same people all consider themselves friends
I know, but the fact he tried to claim that shows that he was hoping someone would look at it and think "They do this other stuff, they could do this too"
When a wolf pounces on a sheep, the rest of the flock scatters and looks on from a safe distance while their unlucky mate gets eviscerated. If they had all ganged up together on the wolf, he wouldn't have stood a chance and their wooly mate would have been saved. Welcome to psychology lesson 1: People are sheep. It's easier to blame/pity the victim from a safe distance than to confront the abuser. On the other hand, only a really stupid sheep would return to graze somewhere where it was previously attacked by a wolf --the smart ones live and learn. Welcome to psychology lesson 2: It takes two to Tango. Any woman who is beaten more than once, shares some responsibility for the abuse. Perhaps she can't fight back, but she can leave.
That's not been easy in Western society until fairly recently. In the absence of a welfare state and alimony?
Dangerous words, and from you of all people. We both know that it's not that simple... What next? 'Rape victims were asking for it?' I know women who have been (date-)raped, and it's amazing what happens. One was too scared to even say 'No' (let alone offer any other resistance). These are strong, confident, intelligent women. I only know 2 women who faced domestic violence; one stayed on for several more beatings before leaving - the other went ballistic, kicked the living sh*t out of her then partner and then turfed him out. But there are few absolutes...
So Nexxo, how would you fire up the sheep, so they take some action to stop the wolf? There must be a few good ways to persuade them? There is one wolf i know of that i have stood up to and he doesn't bite his lamb anymore, but the sheep are still on his side, and tell me to just forgive & forget, as it's all in the past now! I wouldn't want to do that by the way, as i think this wolf would just feel off the hook & free to go back to his old ways again! Not to mention, as time goes on, i can't be the only one that watches over this sheep... i'm barely keeping an eye on this sheep as it is, and the more eyes this sheep has on her the better! [size=-10]or maybe i'm just being a little paranoid?[/size] Even so, i wouldn't mind having a few more sheep on my side... i can't believe i can't win over some damn stupid sheep!
If these people were Muslim, such problems would not occur. Islam forbids killing your daughters and wives. The Islamic doctrine dictates that women may leave a marriage whenever they want, and should get a say in who they wish to marry... Maybe we should convert them and then get rid of these stupid traditions...
Right.. because embracing your brand of Islam is the best solution for oppressed Muslim women.. How about.. I dunno.. Liberalism?
Talk about lame arguments. It isn't simple because it is a two-way dynamic. If a woman stays with an abusive partner for more than a couple of beatings, you have to ask yourself why she doesn't leave (else how do you help her, right?). It may be because she simply can't economically; it may be because she has been raised to be a punching bag and a life of abuse has beaten all the willpower and self-respect out of her; it may be because in some screwy way, their relationship that appears one-way abusive on the outside, is mutually abusive and co-dependent on the inside. There are also a whole bunch of reasons why the partner considers it acceptable to beat up on her. All these reasons can be very complex and difficult, but they are on both sides, and if the relationship lasts for more than a few beatings, there is a dysfunctional balance to it. It is not as simple as "man beats woman". Putting it in context of society, the most important question becomes: why don't we help the woman to leave. We could then consider this a dance of three: the abuser, the victim, and the 'rescuer'. We call that a "drama triangle". That, too, can achieve a weird dysfunctional balance: perhaps the man beats the woman in part because we let him, and because she stays; she stays because we let him beat her. We let him beat her because she stays... Not simple. But don't just look for all the reasons in one person, because that is simple too. Rape, by the way, is not a valid analogy. But if you want to try: it is one thing to get raped, but it's another to stay in an unsafe situation where you get raped repeatedly, and for society to let this carry on. The same triangle applies.
Actually, a lot of the so-called success in The War On Terror (Is **** in the swear filter?) have been brought about not by out bungling efforts, but because the majority of muslims have seen that the violence isn't doing anyone any good and have turned away from the extreemists. As a result, a more moderate brand of Islam has moved to the fore in many places and with this has come a greater role for women in society. i read an article recently that even Saudi Arabia, probably one of the most repressive countries, is considering allowing women to drive. It may be a small step, but one that most of the world will see as being in the right direction.
I would not credit that to moderate Islam, but instead to a immediate sense of fear, terror and mortality that the terrorists have instilled into their Muslim victims.
Except that there's not a lot of terrorism going on in Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, or most other Islamic countries for that matter. It's a case of community standards changing, and terrorists cannot operate without the support of the society they inhabit. Through the violence of their acts they have lost that support, and as a consequence are losing their relevance. A recent study by the RAND corporation found that terrorist groups that were successfully ended were brought down either by police efforts or becoming legitimate parts of the government.
