A Suggestion from Russia

new member, bolingbroke, from russia posted some thoughts in my project thread and I have copied them here:

Any thoughts?

 

I can address point 1:

In reverse order, the custom title is to reward people who stick around.. 750 posts isn't easy to get even for a spammer, so that's the benefit of actually hanging about as a member.

The custom avatar was actually lowered to make it easier to get, but set at 75 as a number where it would weed out the 'one post wonders'.

So far it's worked very well.

The 'chat room' issue isn't from a desire to get an avatar.. it's just the way people are; They don't understand what a forum is.

Unfortunately this is not, or will ever be, true.

 

I agree with the avatar bit a lot. I've seen countless people who spam to get an avatar (and dissapear after that). I assume he is talking about custom avatar titles. I don't believe this is a huge problem. It does show who has been around a while though.

edit - Yeah, what he said

 

I'm not so sure that happens as much as people think. To be honest, a lot that "disappear" after spamming their way to 75 posts are usually banned or given a warning and decide to leave. You see an awful lot of people that continue to spam as, like kna says, that's just how they are and how they use forums. Luckily here most of it's kept to GD.

 

Just to add my 2 pence to point 2.

Ok I'm not even sure how many posts per day 9k members make but I'm pretty sure harldy any mods (except maybe GOO) have enough time ontheir hands to go through and rate every single post by every single member.

 

I would also like to add my view to this thread…I’ve been reading, helping when I think I have something to offer and trying to get help when I have questions. Those that have read my posts know that I’m no juvy…most of the peeps in here are younger than my first born. Anyway, I’ve come to notice a definite arrogance with some of the member of this site. Now, I can not figure why someone would belittle someone with an honest question. Or not thank someone when they are trying to help. This attitude can only hurt. I grew up under the premises that if you have nothing nice to say…then say nothing at all. I can give specific examples but what good comes from pointing fingers…none.

I like this site; I would not be here if I didn’t. I also think this site supports one of the best modding communities on this planet…I just think that some of the people around here should that a few steps back and try to remember what they were like when they first started out.

Well…that’s my two cents worth and if the powers that be get together and decide that my view is distorted, just let me know. I would love to debate this.

I am sorry this has turned into a sort of rant, but its been troubling me for some time now and I wanted to get it off my chest.

 

I would like to point out that the forums here have always welcomed folks new to modding and we have NEVER allowed people to be belittled or abused. That still stands and anyone who thinks they are being picked on or belittled should report it to a mod or admin.

That said, many people do not bother to help themselves and will ask basic questiuons without bothering to run a rudimentary forum search or read the main site. Remember there are many long standing members who often have to repeat themselves because of this. It is only human for folks to get irritated at this sometimes.

As has been said before everyone who helps to run this site puts in many hours and much effort, and to not even bother to read their work before asking a question which is answered in the article is pretty insulting in my opinion. If you don't understand something or need more info that is fine, but aleast try to help yourself. You will remember it easier and people generally will be more eager to help.

 

I understand that whole heartedly…believe me and anyone who has ever sat in tech support will defiantly relate to what you are saying. And what I am saying does not necessarily relate directly to Admins or Mods, its just observations from someone on the outside looking in. Remember, people are inherently lazy…hell, I’m even guilty in that respect sometimes and anyone who says there not is lying to themselves. Self reliance is something that comes with age…scratch that…it comes with experience and that “experience”, for most, is very narrow.

Take myself for example; I am, what I would consider, a master painter and metal worker because that is what experience has taught me. I don’t know jack about electronics because I have no experience in electronics. Most of the people on this forum are young, and as a result have little experience in anything. So they must rely on others to guide them in the direction that their answers lie, not some stupid icon waving a “use the search!!!” to me, that’s just plain rude and also shows a certain laziness on their part. I don’t know…maybe it’s the father in me that wants to help people help themselves…instead of saying something like “use the search engine stupid”.

By the way macroman, I like the new avatar…very seasonal

 

I totally agree with Macro. There is often a sense of 'why do I even bother making the effort?' when you spend, literally, days writing, editing, photographing and posting work to then not have it read. I have witnessed many folks even asking questions within a minute of my posting 180 images and pages and pages of text when they couldn't possibly have had the time to read and digest it all. It's very easy to get frustrated with these people and just bluntly say 'read the article/log' or flash up the search icon. A post providing a full answer, link and so on can take time to write - what if there are 10 questions? 20 questions? Spend an hour or two or three between work and bed, when you should be with the family, tracking down answers for people that you have already given them (accompanied by nice coloured piccys)? Don't think it's necessarily rude or lazy to go "use the search" - in some situations it may be all the person literally has time for.



I mean, the bottom line is that there is no rule or law compelling people posting their work here to then answer questions about it in the forums, it is done out of a desire to help/share knowledge and as a favour to the asker. Yet questions are often asked in a manner literally demanding an answer! If the answers are clearly stated elsewhere in what the author has written and posted, then that's just plain lazy and rude.



In my Orac³ project, for instance, I would have spent more time working on updating and maintaing the project logs than modding the actual case. This is many many hours I could have spent with my wife, family and friends. Instead of appreciating this, many posters to the log simply have the attitude of "hey I can say what the hell I like - no one's forcing you to post your project here" yet, if I turned around tomorrow and said - "Oh. Ok, I won't be posting any more updates then - screw you"... I certainly get frustrated over it, and have warned people numerous times. If they choose to ignore those warnings Admins and Mods tend to do 'stuff' to them...



I agree with Bluebark about, at least, pointing people in the right direction so they can read it for themselves - even if it's only saying briefly (or bluntly) "read the article - the answer is there". At least that encourages the development of research skills and self-reliance. What's the saying "the Lord helps those who help themselves"? I have never used the search icon that I can recall for this reason - always saying where to go look.



A politely asked question, where the person makes it clear they have made a reasonable effort to find an answer before asking will almost always get answered in a respectful and helpful manner by most peeps here. Demanding questions by rude/lazy people take their chances - sometimes answered, sometimes not...

 

I can understand exactly where you are coming from. Now you might scoff at that statement because I have only been here for a few months. But in that few months I have repeatedly written on painting techniques to the unskilled asking how do you paint this or that…most of them are all the same. Now I could have said use the search engine but I chose instead to give them an answer that would make them think. I figure if I can help them understand the technique behind the effect then they could experiment themselves to try and achieve what it is they see in their head. And along the way they will gain experience and confidence in what they are doing, there by decreasing the chance of them asking the same question again.

I know that when I start breaking out my stone and metal work that people are going to start hammering me about it. But since I made the choice to show it to the world, I will have now one to blame but myself. I also might feel differently about this than others. I take great pride in seeing my knowledge passed on to a new blood. Very rarely will you see me just blurt out a quick answer on something I know about. I have years of experience that I can pass on to others…and if just one guy I helped comes back and says I helped him then its worth it…I don’t want to die with all this crap in my head with out passing it on to someone…that would be such a waist.

G-gnome, don’t tell me you don’t feel a certain pride when you look over you work and know that other are following you’re in foot steps. I’ve seen you make statements about how you saw this guy do this or that and how you think he is coping you’re work….excuse me…you have excellent technique. Why wouldn’t someone copy you? Hell, I can only hope that some day someone will think enough of my work to copy it.

 

I'm sorry to interrupt in this very nice discussion (really, I mean it, you both are very respectfull and all that), but I think, BlueBark, that if someone just copies you without giving you any credit, and makes it look like he totally invented it all, that that is a good reason to become angry at that person. What's your opinion on such a situation?

 

Back in discussion guys.

I'm fond of craftsmanship of any kind - my first project was 'Scrapheap Challange (as seen on The Discovery Channel) type' vehicle which I use sometimes on my elk-hunting; my second project was tree-processing machine-tool which helps my retired uncle earn some extra money (and free of taxes btw). So when I got to know that people can modify their computers - OK, lets do it.

To prepare the mod properly I surfed hundreds (literally) of modding and DIY sites (you'd better look through my Favorites). As a result I have tons of guides, how-to's, rewievs and such. My Teleport Pro works all nights long. And shovelling aside the info pearls from all that crap makes me mad. As I consider BT the ever best source of modding (not a bribe, cousins, not a bribe) I hate those who snoop around with just one wish (imho) to be 'the proud member of BT' with avatar and custom titles and spread apart fingers (simple direct translation from Russian). Giv'em the possibility and they vanish.

Or better give all that with bit of information approved by BT stuff (i.e. project log - 2 'stars' or 'points' and got your titles; article or rewiev - one 'star' and avatar and so on and so forth).

To the point #2 of the 'suggestion'. Rating members posts is hard, I understand. Is there any possibility just to count peeps' replies in cathegories, say I've 1 post in general discussion, 2 in Feedback and 2 in Electronics wich makes 20% and 40% and 40% respectively. It gives better idea of member's presence on forums.

And another 'suggestion' - what if very 'specific' part of forum - Project logs - devide in main thread and subbody for 'Q & A' section with severe moderation?

Everything is my only opinion. I'm here not to teach you fellas. And I very much like what you do here. Just in case.

Yours sincerely, Andy

PS. English is not my native and I'm just translator not interpreter (better read/understand then speak/explain). Sorry for mistakes.

Edit. And I forgot one thing. Here (in Russia) we have 'notifications' (or warnings). Like in football (or soccer for USians). Say, four 'yellows' and 'Buy buy yellow brick road' (copyright of Sir Elton). Or red and the same. It makes people don't behave like **s and be more polite.

Again,
Yours, Andy

 

Exactly. I've stated on many many occasions how happy I am for others to copy what I have done. If anyone bothered to read all of my project logs they would see this. Every email I have gotten asking to use ideas I have replied to with "go for it!". The only (and I say that again only) time I get annoyed is:


1. When, just as relix says, they post up their copies on another website (as this certain person did) and imply that it was all their idea and oh how clever they are etc. by not giving a nod to where the idea originated. I've said in the project log - if you do use my ideas I have no problem, but if you post them up at least give me a credit - it helps others find the log and maybe they can get something out of it as well. Then when other people absolutely pig-headedly refuse to admit they are wrong ("oh no, such and such's exact copy of your PSU must be a coincidence! He mightn't have known about your project...") despite me stating I had had emails from the person concerned a couple of months beforehand and they had posted in the project log as well. Yeah I'll get annoyed and I'll tell the person what I think of them.

Then folks just miss the ENTIRE point of the discussion anyway (as Bluebark seems to have done as well) and think I am pissed that my idea was copied (I wasn't at all, as you'd know if you read my log - I even told the guy to go ahead and copy when he emailed me) but rather that no credit was given and all credit taken, despite all I ever asked for (in the logs - several times, and when I emailed him back) in return for my working so damned hard and sharing my ideas and work with people was, if someone copied my stuff, for them to say where the idea came from. Hell, I always do (I'll even take a guess if it's something I saw once but can't remember where).

It always backfires in the end anyhow as so many people know my project they spot the ripoff right away and either slam the person for not being original (an unfair thing as, like Bluebark says, copying is because you like something) or they are slammed for not giving credit and hoping someone thinks they are so very clever and imaginative. Funnily enough, no one ever seems to get slammed when they say, up front, "I got this idea after seeing so and so's mod...."?

2. When the imitator bombards me with demanding (bordering on rude) questions again and again by email and posts desperate questions in my logs ("where'd you get this, where'd you get that - I must have exactly the same of everything you used! My god, I'll die if I don't!"). I'll be helpful the first few, tolerant the next few, uncommunicative the following few, then *snap* and I'll say what I think.

3. When questions are asked, the answers to which I have painstakingly answered and explained already in my writing and photographs or people decide to use project threads as their own personal 'chatrooms' and have arguments or discussions off completely off-topic.


And wouldn't you know it, but I believe the only problems I have had in maintaining my own project logs have stemmed from these three things? No.1 involved a single person, No.2 involved a single person and No.3 seems to be more common but I rarely ever had to say anything as other followers of the project invariably corrected them or answered their questions for me.

I would rather people took some inspiration from the project and used it to go and make something better, adding their own touches in the process, not copy it to the last nut, bolt and rubber grommet.


Bluebark - My project is my first project. I had no experience of working with any material beforehand (wood, plexi or metal). I'd love to say I even owned more tools than a set of screwdrivers and a hammer before this, but I didn't- all the tools I own now were purchased during the project to accomplish specific requirements. My last time doing any of this stuff was 20 years ago in the 3 months of metalwork and woodwork I was forced to do at intermediate school (I made a tin boat and a wooden dishrack and can't even remember how ). Everything (and I do mean absolutely everything) I learned about modding before I started the project was learned from this very site - mostly the articles. How to cut plexi, wire things, mod PSUs, use a dremel, polish edges etc etc. I read and read and read bit-tech.net for about two months - and only asked two questions in the forums the entire time. Now, don't you think if I can do it others can?


I'll freely admit if I don't know something and my knowledge is limited to things I have done to do with the project. Because you have a great deal of knowledge of certain things you probably find it easier than many others to dispense this knowledge and, like you say, you want to pass it on so it is not lost - an admirable goal. When I feel I actually have some knowledge myself worth passing on I'll, hopefully, be able to do the same.


Anyway, I am only repeating myself here, as all these thoughts I have incorporated into my project logs - even as far back as August when I started it.


The things I have experienced are things ZapWizard, Macroman and the other modders at bit-tech have as well. You do something that puts you in the limelight for a while and there is always someone who you'll rub the wrong way and will take a shot at you. If they can't find it with the mod they'll attack your 'attitude' or personality or whatever, try and trash the thread or give the project a 'one star' rating or something equally pathetic. When you are in your thirties and have gone through as much crap in life as I have you don't stand for it. I bet there are a lot of amazing mods out there that will never be posted in a forum for this very reason.


And Bluebark, I do respect age and experience and would never scoff at you no matter how long or short a time you were a member here.

I don't agree Bluebark. Firstly, I think you'll find many many folks who will provide all manner of positive and constructive feedback (or just jaw-drop and go 'wow!'?) and secondly, if someone attacks you in a rude manner when you do post - why blame yourself? Blame them for being a rude disrespecting sod! It's like, 'lets not blame the rapist, lets blame the woman in the short skirt for walking thru the park at 2am - it's all her fault for putting herself in that situation' (we all know this is wrong). Don't put up with it. As Staff and Mods, we certainly don't. At least for every person on these forums who acts like a jerk there are at least 100 smart, helpful and genuinely nice peeps


Holy cow, another massive post! Hope I explained things clearly enough. Though why I should have to defend myself at all beats me - if peeps don't like my 'attitude' then they are more than welcome to avoid reading anything I post in the forums! Project Logs threads are for feedback on projects, not on personalities.

 

Wow, that post was just a good read.

I totally agree with all your points.

I think being able to read the information contained in BT itself and only posting 2 posts on BT and working on a full project that great is simply amazing...

But I have to be a bit guilty here and say that i HAVE wasted a few posts to push up my post count as I'm sure some others have to get a custom title.

 

G-gnome,
It seems that I have made an error…Sensei always told me, “If someone fails to understand it is not their fault…for you are the teacher”. I know that statement is out of context in this situation, but truth always ring true. I tried to convey my thoughts on things I have observed and you have read it to be a personal attack against you…I am sorry, I did not mean anything I said as an attack. I was just trying to use something you could relate to.

Andy…Welcome to the forums. I am sure it will help you as it has helped me. Enjoy…
Oh…I had no problem understanding what you were saying…if that means anything to you.

Now where do I begin…at the beginning of course. Relix, I understand what you are saying, but I feel differently about it. And please understand that I am not saying that the way you or G-gnome feel is wrong. We all view life through our own little window and no one has the same view. If someone were to copy my work and claim it for themselves…the only one they are deceiving is themselves because in the end, their deception is exposed and no one will believe what they say from that point on…they loose! If I were to get angry and lash out at them for the lie…I loose because I have let a lie affect me in a bad way. I can no longer think clearly about the subject because my thoughts are clouded by the rage and contempt I feel for that individual…again, I loose.

Andy…I think the idea of Q&A subs for projects…don’t know if it can be done but it is a very good idea. It would also help to keep the project logs more focused on the project and not people.

G-gnome,
In response to you’re first point, I hope my statements to Relix helps you to understand where I am coming from. Also, I did not misunderstand what you were saying…I just look at it differently that’s all. Remember, I only see what is obvious. I can not understand what I do not know. If people bust you’re balls by expecting thing that they have no right to (telling them how you did this or that) or not giving credit where credit is due just shows their immaturity….nothing more that a kid throwing a fit and just because they reach a certain age does not mean that they are mature…as I am sure you are quite aware of. Children from time to time need to be scolded for their actions or they will never learn what acceptable behavior is.

G-gnome…I am so sorry that you mistook my statements as a personal attack. I would never do something like that. I can’t figure out how I led you to believe that I thought you had all this knowledge…I didn’t mean that at all, I just meant you do nice work and that others look up to because of what you do. As far as the tools are concerned…we all start that way. When I entered into the auto body field I had no tools and like you my first purchase was a screwdriver set…but over the years of working in the field I accumulated knowledge and the tools to use what I have learned…now I have $20K in Snap-On tools that I seldom use. If times got hard, I always have my knowledge and tools to fall back on. IMO… knowledge is some that comes from the desire to do something right and as we all know, the world is full of hacks that will cut corners to get something done. I will freely admit that I have taken that road from time to time. A perfect example can be found in my post in Electronics. But it is not from a desire to rip someone off…I just have a hard time grasping the subtleties of that art and get so frustrated with my own stupidity that I will just ask for an answer to get it done…but in the end that is all that I have accomplished…getting it done. I have learned nothing!

On the statement about going though life and taking a lot of crap…try to keep it relative. My father was shot down in Nam the day after my ninth birthday…I was never going to see him again. I learned everything the hard way.

I am sorry for the long post….I just wanted to make sure that I was not misunderstood.

 

There is often a connection, the arrogance of youth. It comes out a lot stronger and more cruel at school or on the streets, but here expulsion is easier. Behave or you're out!

Bolingbroke, there's a moderators-only forum where we throw ideas like yours around, some happen, some fall for various reasons, but they're all given consideration so keep them coming. We've had a few from other forums; one example, diyAudio have a "sin-bin" system where offenders lose posting rights for a few days - OK, but somebody has to keep track and set/reset the forum database. A warning email is simpler and usually works.

They also have a system where a new member's first few posts are moderator-checked before becoming public - cuts down on pimping and other undesirable single-posts.

Bluebark, I also wonder - is there a language barrier? in the UK we use irony and sarcasm a lot in humour, and tend not to strongly signal joking remarks. I've seen many comments taken seriously by non-British members, despite wink smilies.

As for me, I'm just a grumpy old man, I'll mellow when the weather warms up.

 

I don’t know…it may very well be just a matter of perception.

 

slightly offtopic but related to the bluebark/g-gnome discussion.

if you would have read g-gnome's project log(the first one) you would have seen a lot, and a mean a loooooooooooooot of questions he replied to, telling the poster how he did that and that and that, with a huge amount of details...i mean something like a one page reply to a question that was mentioned in the log itself also seems like a lot of work to help others. and most of the questions as i mentioned also had an answer in the very detailed log he posted. Now look at the post count of his 2 part log and the number of questions there. do you really expect him to answer the same question over and over and over again even though the answer is only a page or two back. I think that is inhuman and as bluebark said, everyone with customer support background knows it, and hates it even those guys were PAID for it.

w00t for my long post. I hope i don t get on someones nerves or anything but i read hundreds if not thousands of pages of post on bit tech even though i did not post much, i read gnome's project log from begining till the current post, i read zap s projects logs, all of the versions he had wallbash: ) and all the others i could get my eyes on. I don t know how others are, but i really like to read from begining to end just to find out how the thing "grows" in time...but then again...how many of the posters around here have enjoyed reading books...thick old books...(i m reffering mostly to the young ones, as I am one too )

 

In Australia and New Zealand we do as well - is why British Comedy was the staple diet of my youth!

Bluebark - no problems there at all mate. Your thoughts and points raised in here have been valid and top-notch! . My post was meant as food for thought for everyone who feels like flaming someone or their work in a forum. When talking about defending myself I was referring to comments made in my project logs. Posting here is really just using my getting flamed as an example of certain negative behaviours in the forums and looking at why they occur. bolingbroke said at the beginning that they occur as a result of systems or rules in these forums that supposedly permit or actively encourage these behaviours. I am just saying that I disagree and that negative behaviour occurs as a result of lack of maturity, emotion and other human factors at the individual level - and showing how I am just as likely to get frustrated and annoyed as the next guy at things that go on sometimes.

Oh, and it's not a matter of perception - cpemma is just a grumpy old man! (and yes, I know you meant something different ).

at-b - your words are noted and appreciated

 

perhaps a Q&A subforum in project logs, or even in general, specifically for questions.

With proper titles, that way when someone has a question on how such and such did that, he has one place to look, and if the question hasnt been answered yet then he can post or bookmark the page orsubscribe waiting for an answer... sort of like a constant growing FAQ (is there a way to set it up so the page is sorted automatically by most views after new posts?

just exactly as what was said, and hidden in a post above.

perhaps disallowing single or double word posts, and forcing people to bow down and show their "wows" in a more explicit manner, that is longer then two words...

perhaps a user controlled, user administered rating system, where each user recieves a rating from spam, to moderate spam, to interesting, all the way through to incredibly useful... and those with below average ratings get *special* attention?