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News Apple iPad Air and new Retina iPad mini unveiled

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Meanmotion, 22 Oct 2013.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Who needs apps when you have a full Flash-capable, WebGL-capable browser? :)
     
  2. Snips

    Snips I can do dat, giz a job

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    Exactly, they do tend to get App-happy but in most cases they just aren't needed 😉
     
  3. Guinevere

    Guinevere Mega Mom

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    Ha ha.

    So they weren't the first company to make serious money out of digital music distribution?

    They weren't the first company to have mass adoption of a capacitive touch 'large screen' (at the time) mobile phone?

    They weren't the first company to adopt glass and aluminium for mass market manufacturing?

    They weren't the first company to develop a gesture based user friendly mobile operating system?

    They weren't the first company to make serious money out of mobility focussed digital software distribution?

    They weren't the first company to introduce a user friendly, all day usable, capacitive touch screen tablet?

    They weren't the first company to bake usable and reliable high DPI capabilities into their operating system? (This is one of many many little things that Apple have done before anyone else. They are at the forefront of dropping legacy crap and introducing the new. Not first at everything, but first at many.)

    There's LOTs of things that Apple didn't do first, but to say they have never done anything before anyone else is quite simply incorrect.

    Sure you can throw stones at Apple and say the iPad wasn't the first tablet etc, but boy was it the first usable and user friendly tablet. Everything that came before it was a dog.
     
  4. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Pass - I have no figures on that, so we'll mark that up as a win for you.
    No, they weren't.
    No, they weren't.
    No, they weren't.
    I have no idea what that means. Call it a draw, pending a more detailed explanation.
    No, they weren't.
    No, they weren't. And if you call the workarounds built into OS X for the retina displays 'usable and reliable,' then we have very different definitions of those words in mind.

    I make that one for you, five for me, and a draw.
     
  5. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    They are still the only company who posts figures for there Digital distribution btw.

    Question, Who was the first then to mass market with a large screen touch device. I know IBM made there ipaq in 1994 but was it ever released to the mass market?

    3rd question no idea if its true or not, Can not say I remember another product.

    4th they were the first to mass market with such a thing, Cornwell Uni made the first actual one in the late 90s.

    5th That could be debated to the cows come home, Id suggest they were the first to reach the mass market with a tablet and still are the go too for many users, They were not the first tablet but they were so poor im not sure companys would like them been classed as such.

    Do not own OSX or have used it so can not say, On the phones and tablets at least the Retina works fine makes text alot sharper in high resolution devices.
     
  6. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    There were various that pre-date the iPad's launch in 2010 - my favourite being the FrontPath ProGear, which had a 10.4" display and launched in 2001 following a beta run on pre-production devices in 2000. It was based on Linux (with a Windows 98-based SE available later), powered by a 400MHz Transmeta CPU, and had a whopping 64MB of RAM upgradeable to 128MB. Lovely bit of kit.
    I am, of course, happy to be proven wrong on any of the above, with the provision of evidence contrary to my position. Any opportunity to learn should be welcomed!
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2013
  7. rollo

    rollo Well-Known Member

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    1st 4th 5th is google search time ( Might bother to search it eventually). 3rd as ive said I have no idea would love to know though.
     
  8. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    I'd like to see your products/evidence for disclaiming Guinevere's statements, Gareth? Some are bound to be contentious, and really revolving around what we define mass market adoption/sales as.

    From my perspective, Apple take ideas and concepts from wherever they find them, polish them and spit out a product that works. Taking the case of the iPhone, we did have previous "smartphones", but I can't think of any that combined the capacitive touch, large glass display and lack of buttons in to a single product. I remember (fondly) the Sony Ericsson P1 as a prime example of what smartphones used to be like, and then the iPhone came along.
     
  9. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'd like to see Guinevere's evidence first. I'm not willing to put the effort in to citing the whole list if the person I'm discussing with won't do the same. (Also, see above for at least one example from memory.)

    As you say, though, some are arguable: is a device mass-market if it's available in shops, or only if it's available internationally? Does it have to sell above a certain number of units, and if so what number?

    EDIT: Ah, screw it, why pretend I have a life. Right, from the top ladies and gentlebeings:
    1) I have no evidence to the contrary, as previously stated.
    2) iPhone was released on the 29th of June 2007; the LG 'Prada' KE850 was announced on the 12th of December 2006 and went on sale in May 2007, selling a million handsets in its first 18 months. A large capacitive touch-screen dominates the front of the device.
    3) Motorola's Razr family, announced July 2003 and launched 2004, used glass and aluminium heavily in its construction.
    4) Plenty of prior art for this one, although I'm not sure what is meant by 'gesture.' I'll put Palm OS as my evidence here, though, 'cos I was a huge Palm fanboy back in the day. 1996.
    5) Again, not really sure what is meant here, so I'll refrain from providing guesswork evidence.
    6) FrontPath ProGear, 2001, as mentioned upthread.
    7) I can't speak for any other operating system, but most Linux desktop environments (including Gnome and KDE) have perfect support for high-resolution displays, and have had well before Apple brought out any retina-class products.

    There.
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2013
  10. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Well, I can make a stab...


    So they weren't the first company to make serious money out of digital music distribution?
    This has to refer to the iTunes Store, which opened in ?2003. From memory, at that time there was very little out there in terms of legitimate, paid for distribution, with most digital music being acquired via less legal means.

    They weren't the first company to have mass adoption of a capacitive touch 'large screen' (at the time) mobile phone?
    Can only mean the iPhone. I really can't think of a device that did this beforehand - everything prior was resistive touch (usually stylus driven), and had plenty of buttons as well (usually a full keypad). The iPhone was the start of the glass front, handful of buttons and capacitive technology (noting that Apple didn't invent capacitive!).

    They weren't the first company to adopt glass and aluminium for mass market manufacturing?
    Guessing unibody MacBook Pros here, based on monocoque techniques first used in airplanes (i.e.: loading through external skin, rather than internal support structures). This is pretty hard to prove, but a Google for "first unibody computer" consistently comes back with the MacBook Pro, which was using the alu/glass approach.

    They weren't the first company to develop a gesture based user friendly mobile operating system?
    iOS. However, arguments can be made for Palm etc. (or even Apple Newton?), but then it hinges on the "user friendly" aspect. I had a Sony palm device, and dear lord was it a pain in the rear.

    They weren't the first company to make serious money out of mobility focussed digital software distribution?
    App Store. Yes, Apple were there first, but we're restricting use to "mobility focussed" - digital software distribution has been around donkeys years. However, I think Apple may well have been first to hit upon the App Store method of curation and also sheer profit.

    They weren't the first company to introduce a user friendly, all day usable, capacitive touch screen tablet?
    Again, we're giving Apple a win by applying caveats. Yes, they did come up with the first capacitive touch screen tablet, but the tablet form factor had been around a lot longer. Apple re-invented it with modern technology.

    They weren't the first company to bake usable and reliable high DPI capabilities into their operating system? (This is one of many many little things that Apple have done before anyone else. They are at the forefront of dropping legacy crap and introducing the new. Not first at everything, but first at many.)
    I'd award Apple a point here. Windows is still terrible at high DPI, whereas OS X does quite a reasonable job. Note, not a perfect job. However, willing to listen if some other OS did it first?
     
  11. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    See my edited post above: LG Prada was the first large-screen capacitive-touch smartphone with no keypad, not the iPhone.
    Ah, we're talking laptops? That'll need further research - but while the MacBook Pro was the first unibody design, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the first aluminium laptop (and it certainly wasn't the first metal laptop - Moggridge's GRiD Compass, released 1982, used a magnesium alloy chassis.)
    EDIT: How could I forget the Kaypro 2000? Released in 1985 with a brushed-aluminium clamshell design.
    Hey, I *liked* PalmOS!
    Nup: Canonical had the Ubuntu Software Centre for a considerable time before the App Store appeared, and other platforms have had similar. (Again, though, that wasn't 'mobility focussed,' if that means what you've interpreted it to mean.)

    See my post above on the FrontPath ProGear.
    Linux.
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2013
  12. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Oh, I'd totally forgotten the LG Prada - I knew somebody with one, and I remember it flying out of a 3rd storey window due to frustration (okay, they had a short temper). With the Prada, I remember rumours of a lawsuit against Apple that came to nothing - indeed, that Apple had prototype iPhones from 2005 (revealed in the Samsung lawsuit). That said, you're right, LG did beat Apple to the punch with that one in terms of launch - no idea which went in to R&D first though.

    Alu & glass I assumed computers was intended, otherwise we could take a trip in to the world of architecture or whatever. I think this is a case of selective choice of words - Apple probably were the first to use "aluminium AND glass" in a laptop, but obviously both had been used separately before.

    As for PalmOS...oh dear. Really? I remember trying to take notes on the damn thing, and swearing at its inability to work out my handwriting, which I swear was following the silly rules!

    For Canonical, that's kind of my point, it's again careful use of words in the original post (mobility focussed) that lets Apple get a "win". Does then fit with my logic as to how Apple work - take an idea and make it better/slightly different.

    Linux DPI? Do tell, I'm interested!

    Oh, completely missed that FrontPath. What the hell is it? Capacitive touch? Resistive? But again, the caveats have emerged, particularly "All day" - the FrontPath stuff I can find indicates only 3 hours on battery.
     
  13. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    I'm pretty certain the Kaypro 2000 had a glass display inside its aluminium chassis, in 1985.
    Oh, aye, really. Started with an original 3Com Palm, upgraded to a Palm III then a Palm 3C (colour - deep joy!) before settling on a Palm T|X. It was only when I got my first proper 'smart' phone (Nokia N95 8GB) that I got rid of the T|X, so as to avoid carrying two devices. I found I could write pretty quickly and accurately with Graffiti, but that's a personal preference thing I reckon - worked for me, though. I *miss* Palm - damn you, HP, for snapping it up and then killing it off.
    Nothing much to tell: most Linux DEs allow fluid adjustment of most display settings, including DPI. Fancy running a high-resolution monitor with massive objects that have really smooth edges? Crank it up. (This is how OS X works, incidentally: you don't get to use the true resolution of the 'retina' displays for your applications by default, with everything rendering at the same physical size as a non-retina display - but appearing much smoother.) Want more space on your low-resolution monitor? Shrink it down so everything is small and difficult to read, but gives you all the space you could want for rearranging windows. Still not enough room? Hell, have a virtual desktop with a 32,000x32,000 pixel resolution - your DE will happily scroll your real-monitor viewport when your mouse hits the edges.
    I remember it as capacitive, but that may be faulty memory - and yes, it had poor battery life compared to an iPad (but, then again, was based on near-decade-earlier technology, so we should likely cut it a little slack.) As I'm getting hungry and fancy lunch, I won't try to find another rival product (although I can remember a stack of other mass-market (though relatively poor-selling) tablets off the top of my head, but would need to research the battery life and touch technology) so I'm willing to give Apple that as a win if we're requiring "all day battery AND capacitive AND mass-market," without further research.
     
  14. Cei

    Cei pew pew pew

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    Ahhh, the Palm 3C. I settled on a Sony Clié NZ90 in sliver. It was incredibly well built, and swish as hell, but limited by the OS to be honest. I've still got it, just needs a new battery.
     
  15. fdbh96

    fdbh96 New Member

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    I think what makes the apple products different is that it combines all of them into one product. It combined a mass of revolutionary ideas admittedly some from other companies into a new device. Sure people had aluminium devices and some had touchscreens, but not many had both.
     
  16. Gareth Halfacree

    Gareth Halfacree WIIGII! Staff Administrator Super Moderator Moderator

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    Some? Little bit of an understatement, I fear.
     
  17. AmEv

    AmEv Meow meow. See yall in 2-ish years!

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    Heh. Last time I changed the DPI in Windows on a hi-res, hi-PPI laptop, it made the text huge , but the images were the same size. It made everything feel "ugly".

    However, my solution was to turn down the resolution. Not the ideal solution, yes, but it "made everything look good".

    Now, I have an HTPC with Linux installed. The keyboard has a trackball instead of a touchpad, but feels GREAT on a lap! (Older PS2 keyboard, only place you might get it is eBay. Sejin Electron Inc 3wr-140) As for the DPI? Well, it made the interface still "beautiful" 10 feet away, and it allowed for less precision on hitting the buttons, while still getting 1080p.

    (Then again, most DEs require several images from 16*16, all the way up to 256*256 icons. So there's that.
     
  18. Archtronics

    Archtronics Well-Known Member

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    Ipad air seems a good upgrade to the lineup not sure if it's enough to warrant upgrading from my 4th gen tho.

    At the end of the day does it matter who did it first it doesn't guarantee success. Apple did set the benchmark for a lot of products, they also showed people where willing to spend on quality. As a company that almost went under it was simply in the right place at the right time, I wonder if Microsoft ever regrets it's investment.
     
  19. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Wanted a Newton, but of course it was unaffordable so I started with a PalmPilot Personal in a nice black leather filofax-like cover (sequel to the PalmPilot 500, and its brother the PalmPilot Pro to the 1000). Then moved to the PalmPilot 3C, then the PalmPilot Tungsten with the slide-out design. Then I tried finding something a bit more tablet-ish before tablets even existed as such, like the Siemens SimPad with Windows CE --but that was simply not viable enough to even work.

    Then I switched to a (second-hand) Motion Computing LE1600 Windows XP Tablet which worked rather well, slow boot times, short battery life and weight notwithstanding --and the rather touch-unfriendly interface. I modded it with Yahoo Widgets Informer, Samurize and Rocketdock and thus created a smartphone-like springboard before iOS and Android even hit the scene...

    When the iPhone came out (and yes, I had the LG Prada before that for a while, but always came back to my Motorola Razr) I switched to the iPhone 3G --later the iPhone 4.

    Since then, the Surface RT --what my Windows XP tablet should have been-- and the Lumia 920.

    EDIT: In fairness to Apple, the iPhone was pretty much already leaked by the time the LG Prada come along. Everybody knew it was coming and what it would look like. To me the Prada felt like a pre-emptive move of an iPhone clone. In terms of functionality it was nice, but basically just a dumbphone with touch screen. No email, no full-fledged web browser.
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2013
  20. fdbh96

    fdbh96 New Member

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    I assure you the reason other companies didn't create a device as successful as the iphone was not because of morals. They just simply didn't have the capability or the will to do it.
     
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