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Education Are you less honest?

Discussion in 'General' started by Kronos, 20 Apr 2015.

  1. Kronos

    Kronos Well-Known Member

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    I am making a Subject Access Application for information under the Data Protection Act because I have recently discovered that although I made a previous request for the same information some time ago there is a hidden file called the audit trail/datix reports for all the information held relating to my complaint, but you have to specifically name this as part of your request. So I am resubmitting the form and note that I have to prove who I am by having any of the following sign.

    They include:

    A Member of Parliament
    A Member of the Scottish Parliament
    A Justice of the Peace
    a minister of Religion
    A professional (Doctor, Lawyer. Engineer, Teacher)
    A bank employee A civil Servant
    A Police Officer

    Why not a shopkeeper or plumber? An IT worker for example why are the above considered more trustworthy than others?

    By the way Kenny MacAskill the Scottish Justice secretary is signing mine as my MP is really not interested in the plebs of her constituency, oh and she is labour.
     
  2. andrew8200m

    andrew8200m Well-Known Member

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    No idea! The amount of old boy police officers (including my dad) my father knows who have left the force and couldn't wait to get out due to (can of worms at the ready) dishonest younger officers is terrifying and listening to a few of them talk about there day down the pub is frankly sickening in some cases so I am completely with you on this. Why no shop keepers or IT professionals on the list of class and profession discrimination listed above is beyond me.

    Perhaps it is due to when or how this legislation was written? Im thinking it must have come to fruition in an conservative ruling period as I cant imagine Labour writing something like that. (second can of worms spilt) - #discuss
     
  3. Tichinde

    Tichinde Active Member

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    Isn't is down to the old definition of a notable and trustworthy person of the community?

    Hence MP's (lol), Doctors, Teachers.
     
  4. megamale

    megamale Member

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    I think the reason is that for any of these professions openly lying would put their whole career in jeopardy, so they have way more to lose compared to a plumber.
     
  5. Kronos

    Kronos Well-Known Member

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    I really do not think that is particularly valid these days. As it seems most of these professions consider lying as part of their jobs. MP's, the police and certainly doctors or rather consultants hence my application civil servants is another one try getting an honest response from the DWP who consider lying a necessary part of their work and not just to us plebs but to my MSP as well. Government departments tend to be a law unto themselves.
     
  6. megamale

    megamale Member

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    These are two different types of lying. What you refer to as lying is misrepresentation, sexing up, feigning misunderstanding etc etc. However, any factual lie would cost them a lot. At one point an MP, forgot which one, was fired after it was found out that he lied on a speeding ticket and got his wife to take the points. Absolutely nothing to do with his day to day job, and something most people would do, but still, the lie cost him a lot.

    You would be really dumb to lie about something so un-interpretable as someone's identity. And the consequences would be pretty dire for all these professions.
     
  7. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    I would guess that the list of professions is such that the identity of the individuals can be readily verified, as opposed to their trustworthiness.
     
  8. GiGo

    GiGo was once a nerd.....

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    I'm a Minster, got ordained online does that count? 'Ministry of Life'

    And MP's being trust worthy pmsl!

    Sounds like a bit of joke to me.
     
  9. Xir

    Xir Well-Known Member

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    I'm an engineer, but not scottish, does that count?

    Here in Germany, you can have your identity confirmed at the post office (with an official form and your ID/Pasport)
     
  10. d_stilgar

    d_stilgar Old School Modder

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    I'm thinking that they are looking at titles that have traditionally been protected.

    Not everyone could call themselves and engineer, doctor, lawyer, architect. You had to have extensive education, go through exams, and become licensed. For many of these professions there's also an oath or code of ethics that is adhered to.

    Today this is more strange since plumbers and electricians have to be licensed (although through local municipalities, and not the same everywhere), and like others have said, becoming a minister is extremely easy since anyone can become one online.

    So the requirement is a little dated in its specifics, but I still see the difference between "shop keeper" and "plumber" as being real.
     
  11. Craig_T

    Craig_T New Member

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    I probably have higher security clearance than anyone on that list, but I am none of them and I work in IT.. It makes no sense, at all and regardless of your position/job/profession etc you can be just the same as anyone who doesn't work...
     
  12. MrJay

    MrJay You are always where you want to be

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    None of those jobs by definition require them to be truthful. So yeah its a load of ****, I remember having to get a reference from my bank manager and he's a total tool.
     
  13. Maki role

    Maki role Dale you're on a roll... Staff

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    I think people are getting hung up on the wrong issue here. Clearly people are dishonest at every level or position in society, be it an MP, Plumber, Shopkeeper, Banker, Doctor etc. I don't think this system is a measure of honesty, it's a means of ensuring accountability.

    What happens if a shopkeeper falsifies that data? Nothing, their job simply won't be affected, same goes for builders etc (not sure about plumbers as things have changed there). However, if a doctor or MP is confirmed to have intentionally falsified information, that could be their whole career down the drain. They may make white lies here and there, but if you have difinitive proof that they lied on an official document then their word is meaningless on everything they've ever signed.

    This doesn't make them literally more trustworthy, but it does provide some form of culpability. Some in this thread have mentioned things about access authorisation through IT, makes no difference. I have access to lots of very sensitive information through my job, I'm not listed as a "trustworthy" signee and I completely understand why. I do think the system is a bit outdated, but I can understand why it was created to begin with. They could do with updating it inline with current professional requirements.
     
  14. jinq-sea

    jinq-sea 'write that down in your copy book' Super Moderator

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    This. Most professions etc have a regulatory body, an institute, something like that. Take lawyers, for instance. To practice, it's necessary to have a valid practicing certificate issued by the regulator relevant to the particular branch of law. If a lawyer is caught falsifying information, the regulator will likely strike them off, which is, in essence career over.

    It's about traceability and culpability, and not about bashing some professions for, erm, stretching the truth.
     
  15. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    so who watches the watchmen?
     
  16. Kronos

    Kronos Well-Known Member

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    I will ask the Scottish Justice Secretary for his views, when I go to get this Access Application signed, on this subject alongside why is it that consultants can lie and make proven false accusations without so much as slap on the wrist?

    As for professions having a regulatory body that can strike them off there have been many excellent TV documentaries where these regulatory bodies have failed to act even when someone has been caught red handed.
     
  17. jinq-sea

    jinq-sea 'write that down in your copy book' Super Moderator

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    That's all well and good - but I get the feeling that you are tarring all professionals with the same brush here...
     
  18. Kronos

    Kronos Well-Known Member

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    I am certainly not tarring all professionals with the same brush it is just that I do not see that having a regulatory body is an indication that a particular profession is less likely to falsify information or dare I say it lie.
    As I have said I know of consultants that have lied when approached because a complaint has been made against them. And the so called investigative body accepted the word of this Dr at face value without actually looking into it or even letting the complainer look at the statement made by a consultant until an application was submitted under the data Protection act.
     
  19. Maki role

    Maki role Dale you're on a roll... Staff

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    So instead of having a system that can but won't necessarily will be successful, you'd replace it with no system at all, where nobody is ever going to be accountable for anything?

    It just opens up the system to more opportunities for failures if you ask me. As I said earlier, I think maybe reassessing the requirements is a good idea, but not so much relaxing them to the point that they may as well not exist altogether.

    It's like saying that since crimes are committed anyway (and some police personnel found to be corrupt), we may as well do without a police force. Well no, they do help, despite the fact that they've done nothing to prevent my motorbike being stolen 3 times no matter what measures I take to secure it.
     
  20. Mister_Tad

    Mister_Tad Super Moderator Super Moderator

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    That's not necessarily what it's about though - as was already pointed out...

    ... coupled with these individuals being likely to putting more at stake from lying than Jonno the chap that works in the corner shop...

     

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