Electronics ATi AIW 9800 PRO problems - Power Delay Relay Circuit needed

the PCB looks great bodger really professional

let me know when its done.. and when you want payment!

 

hey bodger just wondering how the circuit's coming along. Any news?

 

Sorry about the lack of updates, I've been buried under a load of problems with my MEng degree project. (long story!) Not to worry though, I'm still doing the delay relay.

I've soldered most of the components onto the board, and got the LEDs I required from Maplins today. Circuit should be finished and tested by the weekend. I'll post pics when it's done.

 

thats cool. not rushing you at all.. if you have important things to do then leave the circuit for a while

thanks mate

 

sorry to butt in (newbie here) i've got a miniQ too, and i want to buy a Sapphire 9800PRO for it, but after reading your posts, would i also get the same problems? i know it's not an AIW, but i was just wondering so i wouldn't blow my cash thanks!

 

There is a chance that you may suffer from the problems found here. It depends upon the make of the card, and the amount of extra power that it pulls from the extra power connector to the PSU.

I cannot say for certain whether it will give any trouble or not, but even if it does give problems, you could always buy a Shuttle 250W PSU to sort it out, or there is the 'workaround' listed here so that you can see whether the card will work at all, and then you could get a delay switch from me / make one yourself for under £20.

So whatever you do, you won't be 'lowing your cash'. As long as you buy it from the right place, you can always send it back if things go bad. For example, if you were to buy from Dabs or any other UK online retailer, I believe that you are able to send the card back for any reason, within 14(?) days if you are not happy with it. This includes compatability issues. Therefore at worst, you would only lose your postage money. (assuming that the philippines have similar rules)

 

Update for Phils:

I've soldered almost all the components to the PCB now. As mentioned earlier, the new board includes sockets for up to four LEDs for diagnosis purposes:
1) Two at the input, to show correct connection of +5V and +12V power sources.
2) Two at the output, to show that +5V and +12V power sources have been switched on at the output.

Thse LEDs can be used to help identify all sorts of problems with the board, as well as helping you to set the time delay as necessary to get your PC to work, without having to connect the device to your graphics card until its been tested and confirmed working.

Question for Phils: what colour would you like the LEDs to be? Any 5V indicator leds can be either Red or Green, any 12V indicator LEDs can be Red, Green or Yellow.

If you only want two LEDs, (One to indicate power in and one to indicate power out) then that can be done too, just let me know and I'll add LEDs as necessary.


Additional note for soccerjoe5:
Made a small mistake in my last post - forgot that the Shuttle 250 Watt PSU doesn't fit the miniQ cases. Sorry!
And I forgot to say - welcome to the forum!

Additional for everyone:
I've put a pic below of the final PCB layout of the Delay relay, which includes the LED sockets:

​

I'll also add a link in the morning to a zip file containing the Eagle files used to make this PCB, so that anyone else who wants to make one, or who want to edit the design and make a custom one can do so more easily. The files will be compatible with any recent version of Eagle, including the freeware version.


EDIT: As promised, (although a bit late - sorry!!) Below is a copy of the original Eagle Data files. Note that the LEDs are of the type with integral current limiting resistors - two are 5V limited, the other two are 12V limited. (did this to save board space)

Time_Delay_Relay.zip​

If the link doesn't work, shout at me and I'll fix it!

IMPORTANT NOTE: I've just noticed that capacitor C1 is actually installed back-to-front in the Schematics and PCB layout in the ZIP archive!!! The images shown on the previous page are correct - refer to them for the correct orientation!!

 

Would just adding a capacitor inline with each rail have similar results? how long does the delay need to be?

 

Putting a cap inline (in series) with each rail would not have the desired result, since the capacitor would initially allow the power to pass, and after a short delay would totally block the power from passing, as the capacitor charges. Alternativley, a large inductor in series may potentially work, as this would initially block the power and then gradually allow it to pass, creating a delay. Unfortunatley, due to the amount of current that is passing through the card, the inductor would have to be quite large to get the desired effect, and large value inductors are both bulky and expensive.

Alternativley you may try putting capacitors in parallel with the Power supply rails, but again the delay needs to be several seconds, and putting caps that large across the power connector for the graphics card would also create a delay for all the other bits of computer hardware that are connected with a molex power supply. (All molex connectors are connected together inside the PSU)

Capacitors of sufficient size would also put a very large strain on the PSU when the PC is initially powered up, which is exactly what we are trying to avoid. Additionally, the gradually changing voltage may have undesirable effects on devices such as hard drives etc. Getting the +5V and +12V rails to simultaneously reach their correct values would also be very tricky. (Would have to be a case of trial and error)

The solution I have created is better, since it simultaneously switches both +5V and +12V rails, and does not rely upon the impedance of other external computer parts to control the delay. Also, the switching is near - instantaneous, without any gradually changing output voltages.

 

i'll have all 4 LEDs and as for colours.. i'm not too bothered just use any which you think will look ok. .

anyway thanks for the update

 

Just built the circuit on strip board and it works great. Thanks!

Got a 9700 AIW in my Shuttle SN45G and it just crapped out every time I switched it on. Got the parts this morning for just under a fiver at my local electronics shop and 45 mins later it's all lovely jubley. Only issue is not being able to reboot, but it's no that much of a problem really.

All in all, I'm really grateful for people like you helping us all out!

 

Hi Phils, the PCB has been made. Will test it this evening and post pics. How do you want to mount the unit in your case? I can drill four small holes in the corners and supply fixing bolts if it would help.

(Just like a motherboard, the underside must not touch bare metal - it will need a plastic case or stand - offs of some sort)

 

great bodger

yeah the holes would be useful. not sure exactly how i'm going to mount it.. probably try and use some stand offs left over from my motherboard. would that work ok?

cheers mate

 

stand offs from your motherboard should be fine, but you'd probably need to drill some holes in your case to fit them. If the whole thing was mounted in a miniature plastic box from maplins, you could just stick it down with some strong double sided tape - far less difficult, and wouldn't force you to take everything out to drill the holes. (I'd go for the box)

 

yeah I think your right there. i'll get myself one of these boxes .

thanks

 

Sorry I've not posted recently. Still haven't had time to calculate the costs of the device. I reckon that £15 should be fine. How would you like to pay?

Cannot post pic until Friday, since I'm out of camera batteries.

If you'd rather keep this conversation personal from now on, you can email me at Cottons_Box[at]yahoo.co.uk

 

Hi Phils, just got the cheque today I've finished stress - testing the unit on my PC, I had it connected to a hard drive for afew hours.

Finally got some camera batteries this morning, so I've added some pics:

​

In the top pic you will see the following:
1) Power in connection is at the top of the photo, power out connection is at bottom of photo.

2) The black component with the white centre (a potentiometer) on the right hand side of the board sets the time delay. A watchmakers screwdriver can be used to turn it anti - clockwise to increase the delay, (up to about 3 seconds) and turn it clockwise to reduce delay (dwn to approx 0.1 seconds)

3) The unit has four small red LEDs, two either side of the large translucent blue relay. These can be used for troubleshooting as follows:

Normal operation:

i) When first powered on, the top two LEDs should both light, and be about the same brightness.

ii) After a short delay, (delay depends upon position of black dial) the bottom two LEDs should both come on (together). If the delay is too long / too short, power down the computer, adjust the delay, and try again after about 5 seconds.

iii) Thats about it, really. You can set up the delay without anything connected to the output, then connect the graphics card / other device once you've got it working as you want it.


Problems:

These can be pretty varied, depending upon whether it is the power supply into the circuit that is at fault or the unit iteslf. Given that it is working fine here, I'll only go into this if there are any problems.

 

glad you got the cheque!

Pics look bloody great... should do exactly what I want it to do.

operation sounds simple enough.. I shouldn't be able to mess it up

look forward to getting me hands on it lol

 

Hi all,
I have had a couple of emails reguarding the component codes from Maplins, so I have made a complete list available here:

List of component Values:

Part, Maplins Code:
R1 = 1k ohm, code = M1k
R2 = 5.1k ohm, code = M5k1
VR1 = 22k ohm, code = UH04E
TR1 = TIP 122 (TIP120 will do), code = WQ73Q
D1 = 1N4001 (1N4003 will do), code = QL73Q
Z1 = 6V8 (6.8V) zener diode, code = QH10L
C1 = 220 microfarads, (16Volts), code = VH41U
Relay = Miniature 12V 6A Relay, code = FJ43W
Power connectors, Pre wired (*), code = TA47
Power connectors, Un - Wired(**)
Male: code = JW64U
Female: code = JW65V
Stripboard for mounting components, code = JP46A
​

Notes:
(*) This is a male and female molex connector, joined together with a short length of wire, with a fan adapter wired to them. cutting the wire in two and removing the fan connector gives an ideal, ready - made pair of connectors for the units, and is almost as cheap as buying the connectors individually. Given that the individual connectors are not pre - wired, this is by far the easiest way to get the power connectors required.

(**) These are the codes for the unwired molex connectors. (male and female)

Wire: If you wire the molex connectors yourself, make sure that the wire used is the same thickness as that used for the other power connectors in your pc; this is high current wire, and thinner wire may overheat and melt.
Similarly, use fairly thick wire as shown on the photo on bit - tech to make
the inter-connections on the strip board - some of the connections carry fairly large currents. The PCB version has wider tracks for the high current
connections.

If I've missed anything, or got an order code wrong, let me know and I'll fixit asap.

 

hey bodger!

got the circuit first thing this morning.

Its working a treat!! great I can turn my PC on easily now.

Thanks a load mate!