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Attack on the BNP an attack on democracy?

Discussion in 'Serious' started by D3s3rt_F0x, 9 Jun 2009.

  1. tictactoe

    tictactoe What's a Dremel?

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    Check out the Wikipedia info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_National_Party that's pretty helpful too.

    As an "invisible immigrant" (read white colonial boy!) myself, visiting Auschwitz when I was 14, and being of the Anarcho-Syndicalist general political stance, may contribute somewhat to my "They shall not pass" attitude towards these bigoted scum! But hey, I just think that people should be treated equally and fairly, and that there is no place on this earth for the crap that the BNP is based on.
     
  2. Rum&Coke

    Rum&Coke What's a Dremel?

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    So happy to see you posting, B-T seems so center-right its ridiculous (read: posted a chomsky essay, chomsky got dismissed as wrong as Dick Cheney).
     
  3. tictactoe

    tictactoe What's a Dremel?

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    @ Rum & Coke
    Ah, sooo nice to find some common ground. Like a breath of fresh air:rock:
     
  4. kingred

    kingred Surfacing sucks!

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    Hey how about fixing the problem of authoritarianism with MORE authoritarianism. Good work, nice to see we are indeed progressing to a point where we all realise we are the same, and does not matter one jot what colour your back teeth are, if you like the same sex or speak a different language. Perhaps if we can overcome our own petty vanity and ignorance we can find a way to unite, sort out the mess we created and leave this damn rock so the next intelligent species can evolve and we can then have someone to talk to/share this beautiful planet.

    Sometimes it doesn't feel like the 21st century. Yes we may only be about 150 thousand years old (as a species) but we do act like children a lot of the time.
     
  5. D3s3rt_F0x

    D3s3rt_F0x What's a Dremel?

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    Well said just makes the protesters look like facist's themselves, they want to protest fine they can, they want to stop the right to free speech erm no thanks.

    Aye the guy just made the whole thing look and sound like a joke, basically saying we'll do what we want because we don't like them. Guess hes never heard of freedom of speech.

    Completely different scenario, if I walked up and chucked an egg at you in the middle of the street what would you do? Or want to be done?

    Guess you didn't see the protesters kicking out at them and attacking the car (criminal damage)
     
  6. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Yo dawg... (etc.)
     
  7. Bogomip

    Bogomip ... Yo Momma

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    While unpopular, I have no problem with the idea of people voting BNP. Its not a good call for the country sure, but if we are to trust in democracy then we must embrace its every facet - including what we consider the wrong choices.

    Now, the problem I have with this story is the reaction from the leader of the group throwing eggs:

    Now, this ires me almost as much as the BNP, because they are what ? Only opposed to free speech as long as its not about certain things ? Its ok to speak your mind as long as people agree ? That isnt free speech, the people protesting are themselves fascist (or hypocritical at the very least) in that respect.

    If the BNP come to my door promoting their party, I close it, but you have to respect their right to be there otherwise you dont really believe in democracy.
     
  8. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Kind of tricky. Are you supporting freedom of expression if that expression advocates the oppression of freedom of expression? You can see how people get confused...
     
  9. Ramble

    Ramble Ginger Nut

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    Agreed - the BNP has a right to free speech, hopefully protesters will have louder free speech to drown out the crap.

    Pelting eggs and kicking cars is too far.
     
  10. Da_Rude_Baboon

    Da_Rude_Baboon What the?

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    At least Prescott had the balls to fight back. :p
     
  11. Rum&Coke

    Rum&Coke What's a Dremel?

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    Clearly I would contact the police and report an aggravated assault whilst pushing for the strictest possible jail time.

    Didn't see anyone kick them, saw a dude kick the car and I have no problem with if they wanted to press charges against him, like I said they have video proof and everything.
     
  12. Bogomip

    Bogomip ... Yo Momma

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    It doesnt work if you think one thing cant be said and another can, because the other people argue what they are saying can be said and what you are saying cant.

    Its a tough line, but people should be free to say what they want. Its then up to the people listening to decide to act on it or not.
     
  13. remixme

    remixme Own a Dremel, but not used it yet!

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    I'm inclined to agree, I think it's better to have the idiots out in the open by allowing them to say what the hell they want. It encourages healthy debate and probably helps to generate a consensus against them by giving them enough rope to hang themselves. (Metaphorically speaking of course!)

    The alternative is to deny them a platform and risk discontent growing silently, subversively and unchecked.

    Strictly speaking egg-pelting is an affront to free speech, but our laws/society allows the opportunity for them to be held accountable for their actions. I however would be disappointed if the plod deemed it acceptable for protesters to egg one political party and not another; for instance.
     
  14. format

    format What's a Dremel?

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    This. It's an easy way out but one I'm happy to take.
     
  15. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    And you think weve got a democracy??? We ARE living in a police state, fuelled by fear, spying, threats and manipulation with the help of the media and big corporations.

    And the big cahuna.....the current state of mindset.

    In the 60's, 70's and 80's, The minorities were definative in changing the british landscape.
    So now in the 90's and 00's the new minorities are 'selecteively' demonised and/or shunned by the very minority who made the changes to the british landscape.

    An example of this result:
    When people 'see on TV', read and listen to what they are told too in school, they start to believe they are the majority, taught by minority.

    And an example of the result of the above:
    Had the nazis not opened up the death camps, Im sure the BNP policies (and other parties, i suggest reading the current advertised policies) would be part of the political and social landscape today, Instead some generations are only taught in school about bloody auswitz (an attack on a minority)....what about all the soldiers and citizens worldwide that died, who were the majority of the war.
    Surely if the education system can forget about this, we can forget the holocaust too?

    And here we live in country where our WW2 fallen (who are majority in numbers compared to the death camp victims) are attacked publically and forgotten, alive or in the thier grave, bloody sick.
    The holocaust comes to mind as example because everything always seems to point back to that when a person wants changes to be made.

    Fear in the majority ensures success for the minority

    Oh yeah, no im not a commie, no im not a nazi, i didnt vote BNP and yes i do consider myself democratic.
    I believe in the right to be free, think and speak for myself, respect the law and have a voice in how my life is being affected by my surroundings, aka VOTE.

    So after that rant,
    Attack on the BNP an attack on democracy?
    Answer: Yes
     
  16. Sir Digby

    Sir Digby The Supprising Adventures

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    I'm 17 and I know no-one who has forgotten WW2 veterans and the sacrifices that were made it the war. Everyone I know hates the BNP too.

    The people who attack WW2 veterans are the people who vote BNP.
     
  17. Tynecider

    Tynecider Since ZX81

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    I've not heard that allegation, Im sure the attackers are people who were never taught about the sacrifice or bravery, probably school dropouts, who probably dont know a thing about voting, hence wouldnt know what any political party is, let alone the BNP.

    EDIT:
    Most young uns today dont get taught **** about WW2 era, they dont even let them fly a union jack at school, or sing the national anthem!!!
    I have friends who are history/english teachers and they even complain about what is being taught and who is telling them to teach it.
    I am almost 40 and the majority of people i know remember how things got this way, and are not surprised to see the emergence of far right parties.
    Some are distressed, but can see why it is happening. Some are happy because it is showing the current establishment that they are going too far with thier policies.
    Then there are the thugs who give the media something to hark about, but thugs follow every party, do they not.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jun 2009
  18. Sir Digby

    Sir Digby The Supprising Adventures

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    I suppose we didn't get taught that much about the soldiers that died in school, but then we learn the more important lessons outside school.
     
  19. Prestidigitweeze

    Prestidigitweeze "Oblivion ha-ha" to you, too.

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    The question is this: Is racist/sexist/homophobic/anti-Semitic rhetoric protected speech when it is used specifically to incite violence or effect brutally inhumane policy? Is what's being presented the mere succession of ideas or the solicitation of an act of vandalism or murder?

    This is especially pertinent when the speaker/writer has a history of pursuing violent action and/or murderous policy. Germany used to respect the blurred line between hate speech and free speech until after WWII. These days, they can't afford the luxury.

    Nazi rhetoric presents a constant danger in Germany, given: Nazism's standing death count, Nazism's symbolic power locally, the burden of national guilt that Germany must take for genocide and the powerful forces Nazism still aligns and invokes.

    [irony]I would argue as a Jew that Jews aren't a special case[/irony]: Every group that faces violence and discrimination requires protection against the kind of violence that hate speech presages. The only reason people chant white power is because it would look bad to chant black death.

    Americans tend to support the idea of hate speech as free speech (though the occasional thrown egg isn't likely to upset anyone). Even so, I wonder at the decision of a culture founded on racism that allows the Klu Klux Klan to march through a predominantly black neighborhood. It isn't a question of every possible position deserving to be represented equally, but of the safety of the black citizens who live there and their right not to be stalked by racists after centuries of enslavement.

    If I've understood the article on the British National Party in Wikipedia correctly, certain of their views seem to present a threat to the rights of minorities. Vowing commitment to "stemming and reversing the tide of non-white immigration and to restoring, by legal changes, negotiation and consent the overwhelmingly white makeup of the British population that existed in Britain prior to 1948" sounds suspiciously like a prelude to genocide at worst, or murderous social conditions at best. Waiting for BMP to admit this publicly seems far more charitable than they've chosen to be toward non-white races.

    The fact that supposedly pro-democratic crowds responded semi-violently to the BNP only adds more ambiguity to the dynamic -- authoritarianism against authoritarianism, to remix kingred. The alternative is choosing not to silence those whose mission is to silence others.

    Principle-specific democracy would choose the latter; pragmatic democracy might choose the former.
     
    Last edited: 3 Jul 2009
  20. Ryu_ookami

    Ryu_ookami I write therefore I suffer.

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    Yes, but the thing is do you hate the BNP as a party because you've gone and read their manifesto and disagree with their ideals and aims or do you hate them because you've seen them portrayed on the media a certain way and have taken the way that they have been portrayed as an accurate representation.

    Blindly hating the BNP because you believe what you have seen is no better than being a member of the BNP. If you have to hate anyone or any group make sure that you hate them for the right reasons.

    And before anyone suggests it's, 'no I don't support the BNP as I have read their manifesto and it reads like a kiddie version of Mein Kampf' I'll give you an example, they claim that England should be for the English and they then define an Englishman as someone who can trace their lineage back 3 generations as being born in England. That means that if anyone one of your parents, Grandparents or Great Grandparents was born anywhere other than England then they claim that you're not English.

    People should have no problem with you hating them. Just make sure that it's hatred for a reason and not just hatred because of blind acceptance.
     

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