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Hardware BrightSide DR37-P HDR display

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by The_Pope, 3 Oct 2005.

  1. Nezuji

    Nezuji New Member

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    I agree with everyone here in that this new technology looks fantastic, and is a very tangible step toward more realistic display systems. And yeah, it's also one of those, "Why didn't I think of it?" ideas :)

    The article was also very well written; engaging, easy to read and informative. But I'm not so sure it's quite as unbiased as it professes to be. To be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting any sort of shady dealings or nefarious plotting on the author's part, just that perhaps their excitement carried them away a bit.

    The claim of actually displaying 16-bits-per-channel (as opposed to merely interpreting 16-bit channels to generate the display, which is inarguable) is a bit outrageous, given just how many conditions it is subject to, but I certainly look forward to seeing one in person in the nearish future. I won't hold my breath about being able to afford one, though ;)

    Nezuji :)
     
  2. B3CK

    B3CK New Member

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    I thought the article was very easy to understand, and very well presented. I am no expert, but after spending several days a week researching a new monitor for my R.I.P. sony viao trinitron, (which I never noticed that my games kept getting darker, and darker, until I came home and it never sparked again.), I could follow along with everything pretty easily.

    However, I do think that there was not enough info on how different the color was presented. I was wondering what the color difference looked like first hand, on one monitor to the HDR one. I would love to experience black on bright white, but I already have a light in the next room to make sure I don't trip over the table on the way to the fridge. I want color definition as well. How soon before we start seeing those formats widely used? Would I absolutely need SLI/crossfire to play BF2 on a decent size? What about a higher refresh LCD, not just brighter? I am not sure if I would pay any more than say 13% - 15% more than the competing high res/high refresh rate monitor just to get darker blacks and brighter whites. With building my own media center pc very soon, I am thinking more and more of replacing the living room tv with a do-it-yourself projector, so that I could not only watch tv, but play a little BF2 before the wife got home but that would also suffer from low refresh rates, and (probably most assuredly), horrible definition.

    Also, I would be interested in buying some stock if you went public. Might even get a loan to buy up some stock if I were as jazzed as much as the first hand reviewers
     
  3. Meanmotion

    Meanmotion bleh Moderator

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    It appears you've completely missed the point.

    1. It's a new technology that's looking to create better images through more sophisticated backlighting (to put it simply). The issue of refresh rate is down to the LCD part of the screen (and thus not really relevant) and colour accuracy is something that will no doubt be refined over the years/months. You gotta give 'em a chance!

    2. In it's current form it's obviously more suited to (aimed at?) being used as an alternative TV display so the above issues aren't really an issue.

    3. Yes you would need a top of the range graphics card to play on a screen of this size but that's simply because of the resolution. It'd be the same for any hi-res screen. And if you're in the market to get one of these screens in the near future then you can afford a few hundred quid/bucks for the latest and greatest GFX.
     
  4. erdega79

    erdega79 New Member

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    ATI and NVidia are working on displayport interface to replace DVI which has a lot more bandwidth among other things

    http://www.vesa.org/press/displayportaug.htm
     
  5. HerbCSO

    HerbCSO New Member

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    Combing and color fidelity questions

    Excellent article, gets me all hot'n'bothered for HDR to arrive in the consumer space! ;]

    2 questions:

    1. Did anyone else notice excessive combing artifacts in the videos? Seemed more pronounced to me on the BridgetSide display than in the Westinghouse - is this an issue with the camera recording it having problems or is it noticeable in RL as well? If it's noticeable in RL, is this an issue with the underlying display tech or could algorithms be improved in later production models to reduce this?

    2. Color rendition seemed a little off, especially in the LotR scenes - again: camera problems or real? I imagine this can actually be attributed to the camera since it would blow out most of the channels where the highest brightness was, where the color rendition problems looked to be.
     
  6. stoked

    stoked New Member

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    I'm also very curious about Brightside technology in the home theatre, specifically front projection. Is this an implementation that brightside is currently pursuing? Also, what kind of contrast did you guys manage to squeeze out of the projector prototype? On displays less than 42" the difference between GOOD SD material from HD material is not tremendous although very noticeable. However, HDR on a 92"+ screen would be astounding.

    PS. Do you offer demos to local techies? =D Although, even if you did, I'm not sure I'd want see it in person, it would probably just make me want to upgrade. I'm already getting annoyed with my DLP pj's black levels.
     
    Last edited: 5 Oct 2005
  7. The_Pope

    The_Pope Geoff Richards Super Moderator

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    Welcome to the forums, Herb. You're certainly justified in getting all hot & bothered about this technology - I am too! :D

    To answer your questions:

    1) Any combing is not visible in the flesh (that I can recall). If you don't know what combing is, it's nasty horizontal lines (see here for an example: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_1/images/dvd-benchmark-guide-to-bad-edit-bl.jpg )

    For the image purists, I should spell out the torrid journey the video footage has had before it reaches you.

    - rendered in real time on Xbox 360 by Microsoft (I assume)
    - edited by Microsoft
    - compressed with WMV9 and made available for general download on microsoft.com
    - downloaded by BrightSide for demo purposes
    - played back on standard PC; identical DVI signal split to both displays
    - recorded by me. BIG quality drop not only because it's a DV cam pointed at a screen, but because my HandyCam is LDR not HDR
    - ripped via Firewire to my PC for editing
    - compressed AGAIN to WMV9

    I have just had a quick look at the 25MB version, and I can see why you mentioned something - it's kinda everywhere. HOWEVER, I also checked the 1.4GB raw AVI rip from my DV cam, and that combing doesn't appear once. It appears it is an unfortunate result of either the editing process, or the compression.

    Since it's HDR vision captured on an LDR camera and viewed by y'all on LDR monitors, it was always "For Illustrative Purposes Only" but it seems I need to add combing to the list of disclaimers :sigh:

    2. Colour Rendition: it depends on what you're objecting to specifically. As explained before, the white blowouts are just my LDR camera having a heart attack. The colours are rich and juicy, and far more vibrant as a result of the increased luminance. Side-by-side, a few things look different, but when you see it first hand, you realise that it's for the better. Big time.

    Stoked: Welcome also. Your questions are definitely for the BrightSide boys. I'm not sure they're in a position to have every Home Theatre enthusiast in Vancouver turn up at their office, but they can probably take your contact details and let you know when the next local public demo might be.

    Right now, they're focussed on doing deals with the big manufacturers, but they're all nice, friendly Canadians eh, so if you wanted one for $49k next week, I'm sure they'd take your call :D
     
  8. Tim S

    Tim S OG

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    I saw this today in the flesh today, I'm speechless. :eeek:

    I need one of these in my living room and also one in my office too :D
     
  9. metarinka

    metarinka New Member

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    I like this, this seems like a next step. It seems like there might be HUGE issues with burn in, as I could see a bunch of white led's shinning 24/7 on the back of the lcd causing issues.

    Also it seems like it could be done with other off the shelf technology, like a modern rear projection tv, just with an extra 4th white light channel that would enter the prism and control the overall brightness (seems it would be easier to do this on a per pixel level.) More wastefully you could use 2 standard digital projectors with a propably stock rear projection screen (they had one in the conference room at my Uni) Have the rear projector control the 4th channel, and the front display the color.

    or even more unconventional have a standard off the shelf lcd panel but house it in an off the shelf rear projection unit and have the 4th channel in the back controlling brightness. (it almost seems like you could do this today using all off the shelf components, and although not as bright you could use the 3 electron guns to make white light. Alternatively you could use a DLP chip to say cast a xenon bulb)

    This technology is very interesting but it seems to me there would be ways to make it per pixel or a smaller array then they are attempting. I think the point to where we get high yields and Effecient white led's is still a little ways off. but it seems the core concept of selectively applying the backlighting could be achieved in more conventional ways.

    Any thoughts? Am I missing some fundemental technology barriers?
     
  10. Hwulex

    Hwulex New Member

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    Brilliant article guys, really really well done. As well as being pant-wettingly exciting new technology (I've started saving already), it also explained all the HDR stuff that I haven't bothered reading about up till now. Kudos.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 6 Oct 2005
  11. Constructacon

    Constructacon Constructing since 1978

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    Let me add my awe to the pile collecting. Brilliant use of combining existing technologies in a way no one ever thought of before. It's so simple it's incredible.

    Props to Geoff for a really well written article. Usually I stay away from heavy tech articles unless I'm in the mood, but this was informative and easy to read.

    I for one will be buying one of these in a few years time when they become readily available over here.
     
  12. mclean007

    mclean007 Officious Bystander

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    I don't think so - the whole point is the LEDs don't shine 24/7 onto the back of the LCD. They only shine when needed to, and only brightly enough to produce the desired image. Say you had a PC where the screensaver was a black screen, but the power saving on the monitor never came into effect, with a regular LCD the backlight would still be burning into the back of the LCD at full pelt. On the HDR display, the backlight would be at zero brightness when displaying a pure black image, so the LCD panel wouldn't suffer. As such, I'd say you'll probably get BETTER life out of an HDR panel than a regular one, assuming the same usage pattern and assuming the LCD panels themselves start out the same.

    In any event, I thought LCD burn-in wasn't really much of an issue with the newer panels? I wouldn't know as I haven't got one!
     
  13. Da_Rude_Baboon

    Da_Rude_Baboon What the?

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    I was under the impression that burn in was non existent in LCD's as they are a non emmisive display technology? :confused:
     
  14. Sathy

    Sathy New Member

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    I'm also very impressed by this new technology and can't wait to see it in the consumer market!

    Also the article was VERY well written, understandable and still had a lot of detailed information! Haven't read anything as interesting in a while now.
     
  15. metarinka

    metarinka New Member

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    I'm talking about the type of burn in you see on plasma screens when you say leave the lcd on cnn all day and the tickers or channel logo's get burned into a corner. Also as with all LED's don't they start getting dimmer after so many hours, I know their half life is really long but what about their uhh 9/10's life? I have a feeling you could get into issues of uneven backlighting after soo many hours.

    sorry I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, I'm very eager for this technology

    any one give any thought to the rear projection housing idea? using a dlp chip in a rear projection housing to control the 4th channel to get per pixel selective backlighting? It does seem feasibly possible with off the shelf parts from today's technology
     
  16. mclean007

    mclean007 Officious Bystander

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    Quite possible, but (1) Brightside apparently have a patent on ALL forms of adjustable backlight so you'd need them to license it to you if you wanted to have a crack at commercialising a product using a dlp chip in a rear projection housing to provide selective per-pixel backlighting for an LCD, and (2) why go to the expense of a great big flat LCD panel if you're then going to dirty it with a big ol' backbox to provide the backlighting?!? Brightside's solution provides the HDR capabilities and remains (relatively) flat.
     
  17. yodasarmpit

    yodasarmpit No longer the other Brett.

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    WOW



    But what happens if one or two or 50 of the LED's die.
    Not only will you need to worry about dead pixels, but also dead LED's, and unlike replacing a cold cathode this would be a tricky operation.
     
  18. CyberSol

    CyberSol 1337 Pants

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  19. Meanmotion

    Meanmotion bleh Moderator

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    Why would it be anymore difficult? Ok, a bit of soldering might be required but it's still just replacing an LED. As for dead pixels, well this technology would go some way to reducing their effect as the backlight would at least be at an appropriate brightness behind the dead pixel.
     
  20. hitman012

    hitman012 Active Member

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    I think this is something that BrightSide would have thought of and implemented some system where they can be fairly easily replaced. Besides, LED technology will mature greatly in the next few years, and as we won't be seeing this display for a while, they will be able to take full advantage of it.
     
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