the british govement in another way of forcing people to have ID cards when and if they come into force say that with in the next four years if you want a passport you'll have to produce an ID card as well and top of that they now saying that it will be phased into be compulsary and whats more we are going to have to pay for it ourselves the combined price of an ID card and a passport will be £85.00 with a reduced rate for those on a low income and pensioners
(no offence, dude, but please use some punctuation) My problem is not so much the ID cards, but the authorities' absolute trust in the ID cards. They believe it to be absolutely foolproof, whereas in fact it has been demonstrated by a couple of Dutch IT experts that you can whip up a fake in 30 minutes using a laptop and a small briefcase of off-the-shelf electronic and technical equipment... down to the fingerprint information which they simply lifted off someone's beerglass in a pub.
TBH I'm not all to bothered with ID cards because we all have them in some form or another, mainly driving licences, and I've got nothing to hide from the British Government (except my pr0n??! ) and we live in such a big brother society now, ID cards will just be a little more. But its the costs of them though, in a way I''m thinking why should we pay for the government to keep track of us, isn't this a free country? And what does the government classify as 'low income'? Does that mean students as well, I'm off to uni next year and I know £85 will seem a lot. My passport expires in May 2006 so I guess I'll be forking out £85. As for fakes, I don't think we'll ever be able to achieve foolproof ID's? Just my thoughts.
(I would use the correct punctuation but I was Dyslexic at school and while the rest of my class were being given lessons in english grammer etc I was being given special lessons in how to overcome the difficulty i was having with spelling so I did'nt learn the grammer i know some of it now but i still have difficulties so rather than put it in some times or putting it in the wrong places i just leave it out now back to topic I saw that program as well but it has been reported by the bbc today that the british goverment claim that it will take 8 years for everyone to have an ID card if crooks can beat the biometrics on the cards now exactly how much better will they be at forging them then. also what will have if people refuse to a: Pay for the card or B; refuse to sit for the picture, carry the card etc. I can seriously see this becoming another issue to compare with the poll tax introduction where people were marching on downing street etc in protest.
Not bothered about the idea, but the thought of paying £85, when I already pay for a passport, and a photo driving licence (which now counts as ID).
Myself, I can see three main issues with them; 1) Cost 2) Who knows what will be contained on it? 3) Not only is it fakeable, but it won't solve anything -- the 11th September attackers were all LEGAL residents of teh United States. Until they boarded those planes with the knives, they did not commit any crime. The same has occured for many years with organised terrorists, and I see no reason for it to stop. At the end of the day, terrorists have to be pretty well-organised and funded these days, and if they are amateurish enough to be illegal immigrants, well they DESERVE to be picked-up. I am extremely anti the ID card idea. I would refuse point blank to have on -- no matter of the legal ramifications. I am a man (well, 17-year-old) of certain moral beliefs, and I stand my them. I think that it would be a terrible threat to our freedom and liberty to have all this stuff that won't even work to do what it's supposed to!
Yes, but everyone accepts that our current means of identification are not forge-proof. And although you are quite right that nothing ever will be, the government speaks about ID cards being forge-proof with a self assurance that I think is rather worrying. Good point. I think it is just another paranoid and misguided attempt by the government to appear to be in control of the whole situation. There is nothing wrong with your grammar, and very little with your spelling. Just start your sentences with a capital letter and add a full-stop at the end, and throw in a comma where you'd come up for air if you were reading the sentence aloud. That will go a long way.
I don't see a problem with these cards. Like any ID they will be forgeable however with the addition of biometrics (iris I hope, but we'll get fingerprint) they'll be far harder. These cards will more than likely replace drivers licenses which would be cool as I've got too many cards already £85 is seriously steep but considering it costs, what? £40 for a passport already, it's really not that bad. It's a once-in-20-years thing so I'm sure we can all stretch to £40 And dude, review your post after you've written it. I know many people with dyslexia however with a little time I'm sure you can construct a sentance <3 lines long. Not being offensive but if you can, do.
I don't have a problem with the government having my finger prints and iris scan, or even DNA. Infact, I think it would be a good idea. Lets say someone you know gets raped, you would want that person who did it caught, right? Well, in theory the authorities would get a dna trace from the victim, fire it into the ID database, bobs your uncle you have a list of possible attackers. Or someone nicks your car and they can trace the person through their finger prints, i'm sure you would all aprove of the system then? If the system works like that, then excellent i'll pay my £40 tomorrow. If not, then its a big investment on the governments behalf for it not to work. I don't see why people are getting so tight up about it "invasion of privacy blah blah blah". At the end of the day your bank knows all your cash incomings and outgoings, your supermarket knows your shopping habits through your "club card", and your mobile phone company knows all the text messages you are sending. People are giving personal information about themselves all the time, and they don't seem to mind, so whats the difference? Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a perfect system. But even it cuts petty crimes by 5% it is worth it.
The difference is that the goverment isn't talking about putting dna or fingerprints on it. they are talking about using the iris of the eye and they have had a fingerprint database for ages now, it does'nt really help after all knowing who did some thing is one thing, being able to prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt another. Also they are not talking about using it to stop crooks it's meant to be anti-terrorist thing. From what i can see the goverment is tryingto use the countrys fear of terrorist act to rush though an otherwise unworkable and terrible idea. yes i know that id cards have worked in the past but when you combine ID cards and this countrys outdated laws then it could cause serious problems. after all technically in this country its illegal for every abled body male over the age of 16 not to practise archery after church on a sunday (and yes it is a real law thats never been revoked). yet if you were to do so you would be arrested for carrying an offensive weapon. until this country sorts its act out its only going to carry on going down hill.
You'll pay for it no matter what. If the government offered them for free, they still have to be paid for. You know where government revenue comes from? You. People seem to find it more offensive when they know they are paying, than when it just comes out of tax revenue
The thing that gets me most is all the hard working people will have to cough up £85, but you know the first thing the government will do for every new immigrant is GIVE them a FREE card, right? Cos they've got no money and the government WANTS them to be on the scheme. What also worries me is that if my whole identity is stored on ONE card, and all others are redundant, and someone forges my card, and the government in its blissful ignorance claims the cards cannot be copied, and the forger of my card commits a crime under my identity, how will I prove my innocence? That is a silly comparison. So they know I earn £xxxx a year, I buy stuff with that money and send texts? That will single me out from EVERY OTHER PERSON ON THE WHOLE PLANET?!! The comparison you should really be making is: What if ANYONE could find out your IMPORTANT details (NI number, address, convictions, age, possibly location at any fixed point in time) ANYTIME they wanted? What if you had to swipe your card every time you went anywhere? Did you know Oyster logs every journey you make with your card on London Underground, the busses, every trip? LINKED WITH YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS? And your creditcard? And now these cards? My friends, Welcome to the the nanny state. Big Brother might not be watching you yet. But he SURE AS HELL knows where you've been.
For a start it isn't going to be £85. They estimate around £30/£35. £85 is the rough amount of the ID card and passport combined. If you don't want to pay all that, simply only pay the £35 for the ID card and don't go abroad. You say the government will give them one for free to immigrants, but isn't the government currently offering our health service to anyone who walks in the door, at our expense? What if everyone were required to show an ID card before recieving health services? No ID, no service. Stops people coming over taking advantage of our health system. Simple. Well, simply don't lose your card Seriously, I doubt anyone will be able to pull off an exact copy. Plus, I don't think the government will match it up then throw you in jail without going to court. The government can access this information at any given time. You don't think they just send you out a NI card without writing down who they are sending it to? And then they keep track of exactly how much you earn so they can work out how much tax and NI you have to pay. Do you ever wonder how the government knows if you've had any convictions? Its because they have it all on record. Surely this singles you out as an individual? A lot of employees now are asking to see proof of ID and evidence of residence before they will employee you. And all of us are willing to show these items. This is why I really find it hard to see why people opose this system so much. The ID cards if nothing else will save police time by getting your details from one database rather than going to your bank for one thing, tax office for another, your employer for something else. You say the government will track your every move. I can't see the government tracking my every move each time I jump on the train to visit my g/f, or get the bus into town to buy a roast chicken bake. Why would they need to? If I killed someone on the train I can see they may trace it back, which is understandable. But do you honestly think the government have time to track every crime, let alone some guy going to buy a chicken bake from the local bakery? Also, I believe Dad posted a thread the other week about some guy being tracked in London on CCTV. I'll and try and dig it up, if not if he sees this hopefully he'll post it. If are uptight about keeping their indenties secret, then stay away from London, and move to Columbia.
Yes, they've had a fingerprint database for ages.... but only for people with convictions. Most murders/rapes etc are made by people who haven't been arrested before. If there is a nationwide database of fingerprints it'll speed up the process 10000000000000 fold (okay, maybe not that much ). Although in the current climate, this is being targettted towards anti terrorism it's no more effective against terrorism than with 'normal' crime. Yes, in the UK there's some wierd laws but that's no reason to say that the UK has outdated laws. You actually think all over 16s NOT practicing archery are arrested? exactly. I think I'm remembering it right: It is illegal to be Welsh, in Canterbury on a Sunday with a full moon dancing a jig with a daffodil. Something stupid like that is true but you won't find these people on Scotland Yard's notice board
So what you're saying is that we will give free id cards to every immigrant that wishes to take advantage of our health system, and then let them do it anyway, safe in the knowledge that we know who they are? Well, I'm sold. Thats shed a whole new light on the subject :| I ahve no intention of losing my card. which would be the shame of it. My ID card would prove beyond doubt who I was and that I was the one that perpetrated the crime. You think they won't be able to forge these things? Seriously? You really believe that? If you REALLY HONESTLY believe that, you are insane. Yes, I know that. But never befoee have they stored all this information on one handy dandy, easy to read and scan, soon-to-be-compulsory card that you must carry at all times. If ppl can forge these cards, they can read them too. I hope you're happy having your every movement traced, your every spend analysed, your life compressed onto a card. WTF? The police don't go to your bank? what are you talking about?! No, I said they DO track your moves. Right now. You have an oyster card? They track you. Want proof? Go to any London Underground machine and touch your card to it. Now view your most recent journeys. There they are, plain as day.
The database of fingerprints is created from previous offenders and criminals, not the entire population of the country. I admit that if a database was national there may be less crime, but I still disagree with the compulsory ID cards that we have to pay for from our own pockets. What I find amusing is the insane amount of references to "9/11" and terrorism when discussing these ID cards on the news etc. What a load of crap.
You admit that there may be a reduction in crime due to a national database of fingerprints but disagree with the scheme because we would have to pay for them? Would you think the system is worth it if we didn't have to pay?
I'm with WireFrame on many of these issues. The ID card will be eminently forgeable. It's got fingerprints on it? No big deal; as I said some IT experts whipped up a fake ID card at a table in the pub using a laptop, card reader/writer, some bits and bobs from a briefcase and a fingerprint they lifted off a journalist's beer glass without his knowledge (they told him afterwards). DNA? They could have got that from the same beerglass (extracting it to data would take a bit more time --half a day working on your kitchen worktop, say). You may argue that getting a passport photo would be harder, but it is already easy to extrapolate a full-frontal portrait from a digital photo casually shot while passing in the street. Leaves just the iris scan... The real problem in this is that people will believe the ID card is forge-proof, and will put their absolute trust in it. "No sir, you must have robbed that bank/been in that building just before it blew up, because we logged your ID card there...". The famous "it must be true because the computer says so" statement. Put not your absolute trust in ANY technology; people make mistakes, technology fails, IDs can be forged, bland appearance derived from simplistic data can give a deceptive impression of more complex underlying facts. The other real problem WireFrame is trying to get across to you guys is about Information Convergence. Sure, a lot of data about our lives and movements is already available to government and companies alike, but none of it is all in the same spot. To reconstruct someone's identity, life and movements, at the moment you would have to hack into a load of databases which do not necessarily talk to each other, or share their information. Our digital echos are fragmented and the pieces are hard to fit together without a common framework, therefore the picture remains incomplete. However with the ID card, a lot of this data would start to converge and to reconstruct the whole picture would require just a few single hacks into a few systems. The main one of which will be government run, and therefore woefully inadequately protected (as Wireframe says: how often are national security secrets found in the street? Government laptops with sensitive data stolen? Government computers hacked? We probably don't know the half of it).
/me kisses Nexxo "Our digital echos are fragmented and the pieces are hard to fit together" I love that line Everything he said is correct and true. Do NOT trust the government to protect your data. Do not trust ANY ID card to be completely reliable.
