I can't find where I said that. I'm guessing you misunderstood. I said we are currently allowing immigrants to use our health service free of charge. If they we were required to show an ID card this would reduce this happening. As for freely handing out ID cards to immigrants that is another matter. Of course I don't believe you won't be able to forge them. I'm just saying your average Joe crook who breaks into a house now and again is unlikely able to forge one. Sure its a little risky having it all stored in one place, but its one of the down sides to an otherwise I believe benefical scheme. You're right. I guess our authorities are authorities never went to Mr Bin Ladens bank and froze his account. No, I said they DO track your moves. Right now. You have an oyster card? They track you. Want proof? Go to any London Underground machine and touch your card to it. Now view your most recent journeys. There they are, plain as day. No, but I bet if they wanted to find that guy walking in the crowd they could but at the cost of police time and money. Nexxo, you bring up some very good points but this scheme is still better than anything we have in place at the moment. There are obviously many flaws in the system at the moment, but considering they aren't going to vote to make it compulsary until 2010-2012 that gives the government a lot of time to fix many sercurity flaws. However, like everything else there always will be flaws, but hopefully only minimal ones.
ID is a good thing however the new ID card thing is somthing i deplore. I shall quote from The Register Also the governement is basing the whole exercise on a Trust basis. We have to Trust them that the system will cut down on terroists however i have not seen any hard facts as of yet that will make me see that these new ID cards will protect me. el Reg makes some very valid points which i lack the ability to convay so i would ask you to read the following links. number 1 Number 2 I was personally very glad that David Blunket was forced out of government however i have now been delt a sour blow with the fact that somehow his departure was given credit as the labour spin machiene took effect. I wanted his ID cards to go down with him however this is unlikely to happen. number 3
My main problem with the cards is the fact that such information would give the government great power. I trust the current government (just) enough to have that information, but how can I say that of all the governments that come to power in my life time, just one of them wouldn't misuse the information. "That wont happen" you think, but if you'd asked the German people if they thought an abusive government would gain power in Germany a couple of years before Hitler got into power, I think they'd probably say the same thing. At the end of the day, for the minisule benefits it would pose, it's not worth the irresponsible risk.
No. the federal Bureau of investigation froze several assets of an international terrorist organisation. The didn't go to New Scotland Yard and mooch down to the local Barclays to find a Mr. O.Bin-laden and nose through his files. Nexxo re-iterated every point I made.
personally i dont trust this government as far as i can throw a stick, but then i dont generally trust governments at the best of times. This Labour government has effectivly removed the house of lords which it is correct shouldnt be a "born into" thing but it IS one of the safty measures of our political system. Its there to stop the house of commans running a-muck and implimentsing laws that are bad for the country. The lords are there to protect the country with an unbiast eye. Now all is left is somthing i dont see can do anything to help esp. as this government has on occations ignored the lord alltogether and pushed forward powers that reduce our civil liberties.
I said I agree that a database of fingerprints could reduce crime, I didn't say I agreed with such a scheme.
This is what worries me. I don't care if the government knows my details and my movements - they'd be able to find out those things if they wanted to anyway. What concerns me is some kind of uber-database, with *all* my important personal information being within tantalising reach of some computer hacker who could sell it to god knows who to do god knows what with. It's only a matter of time.
The average Joe Crook cannot forge credit cards, unlock stolen mobiles or car radios, forge passports, crack software, manufacture MDMA or LSD, or launder his ill-gotten money. That's why he knows skilled individuals of whom he can buy such goods and services at a most reasonable price. Let me remind you of the basic laws of commerce: supply and demand. The criminal economy is not different; everyone's out to make a buck. To give a topical example: the US army are finding that drug plantations (poppies, cannabis, coca plants) residing in the back yards of certain South American neighbours have recently developed an unusually rapid resistance to the herbicides that they have been dumping on them as part of their "War on Drugs" effort. How come? On closer inspection of confiscated contraband it turns out that these new strains have actually been genetically engineered to be herbicide resistant, I kid you not. Now El Local Drugslord doesn't know sweet FA about genetic engineering, and neither do his gun-toting goons, right? But there are plenty of bioengineers for hire who do, and don't mind making a quick buck to pay off their study debts... You got the money, someone's out there to offer you the skills. My point (and WireFrame's) is that it's a BIG downside, because it's so vulnerable and so ripe for exploitation, abuse and mistakes it's untrue. Thanks, but they are also WireFrame's points; I just wrapped them up in a pretty package verbally. Anyway I do not share your optimism. The government has an absolutely god-awful record on implementing large computer networked databases (the CSA one being the latest), maintaining data security and producing forge-proof documents. Then there are ministers bending the rules like Beckham --remember the recent Romanian and Bulgarian Visa scandal that James Cameron blew the whistle on? Giving them out without sufficient scrutiny of applicants with false papers to catch up with the system backlog? If we hand out ID cards willy-nilly, what good are they? All they will serve to do is give a false sense of security: "He's got an ID card, and we know you can't forge those, so he must be OK".
Are you people who are in favour of these cards actually saying that you'd trust the government with every single detail of your life? The same government that plagiarises 12 year old theses and tries to pass them off as intelligence? The same government that has just decided to ignore the law-lords ruling on them holding "terrorists" without any evidence to charge them with? The same government that has just been rocked by what is effectively corruption at the highest level? Please, don't make me laugh. These ID cards have no benefits whatsoever. Stop terrorism? I don't think so- the Spanish have had ID cards for years and it's never stopped ETA. The 11/9 terrorists were all in the US legally. What good are they going to do apart from that? Prove my identity? I have a passport thank you very much. How many miscarriages of justice will we end up with simply because "the card is always right"? We have enough problems with this as it is---just ask the Birmingham 6 or the Guildford 4. Sam
I've no problem with invasion of privacy issues, and think an ID card of the planned complexity should be of benefit to me, otherwise the whole system is a waste of time and money. Every year I have to prove to a bank I'm me, to change one or more signatures on a joint club account. Same for anybody opening a new bank or building society account.They need passport, recent utility bills, etc. I should be able to flash my ID card alone. Same if I forget my chip & pin number or give a shop a cheque - "Here is my government-backed ID card, this is all the proof you need that I'm me". Be nice, but I haven't heard a government man promise such.
But if all you need is one little card then fraud is just going to go on the up- at the moment it is fairly hard to pretend to be someone else- because you need lots of things i.e passport, bills, etc. We are just going to be gift-wrapping identity theft for criminals! Frankly, I will take a little bit of hassle when opening a bank account rather than run the risk of fraud on a potentially massive scale... EDIT:And another thing--- at the moment people generally don't carry their passport and other major forms of ID with them. If we are going to need these cards for lots of everyday things then people are going to carry them about. And if people carry things about, they lose them/get nicked--- making it even easier to get your hands on someone else's ID. Great! Sam
i must say that i really don't see what the big deal is. i lived in south africa and we had to carry our id boks with us at all times. it was an offence not to and you could be fined. so we carried our id books - or not if we couldn't be bothered. no big deal, just the way it was. if you had a drivers licence or firearm licence all that info was in the id book. i guess having lived somewhere where that was the norm it doesn't bother me that i would have to have that again. but the people opposed to it have never had to have them before. and in theory if you don't want a passport don't get one. you should still be able to travel within the EU with just your id card. in theory
Here's the list of what on... http://www.no2id.com/IDSchemes/faq.php#7 Why do they need to know everywhere you've lived? ch424
You misunderstand the argument. Nobody has a particular issue with having to carry an ID card (although Uncle_Psychosis' arguments on that point are valid). The issue is with its easy forgeability, the misplaced absolute trust in its truthfulness, convergence of information issues making privacy vulnerable, the fact that these sensitive data are going to be managed by an inept and basically somewhat corrupt government, and the fact that it does in no way bring the national security benefits it claims. @ ch424: Good link, that! I advise everyone wishing to contribute to this thread to read it.
Howzit! I lived in SA for 18 years or so too and I still have my ID book But that's a completely different thing to this proposed UK ID card. The SA ID book was not linked to as much information as the UK ID card scheme wants to be. Having recently moved to Spain, I have an ID card which does come in useful for even the smallest things like opening a video store account, so I can see how having an all-in-one card in the UK would have its advatages. But I'm gonna have to side with WireFrame & Nexxo on this. The UK ID card is being sold as forge proof, anit-terrorist solution, no more identity theft, etc etc. and its simply not that at all. The fact that it will be so trusted already makes it more open to fraudulent crimes. That plus the UK governments uselessness in data security All important points aside though, it looks FUGLY!
That's great, I've moved 24 times in my lifetime already, so if I move back to the UK and change address 4 or 5 times it will cost me about £10 or £20 a go just to change the info that THEY want from me Also, LMFAO at having to pay them to correct a typo they make! It reminds me of that stupid artist woman who wanted money to correct the spelling of names on that statue or whatever it was. Also, for anyone in the UK who has checked their credit information (Equifax, Experian, etc)... Mine were in such a huge mess & I only lived there for 5 1/2 years, if such a little bit of information can't be kept in order how on earth do they (gov) expect to keep on top of the mega database?!?!?!!
I'm not dissapointed. I was just trying to summarise the arguments upto that point. Feel free to add more! Sorry to hear about your problem. Perhaps your only option is to apply for a passport under your birth name (so you have a valid birth certificate), and then change your name back to your present name by deed poll. The technology (transponder chips) is not only available, it is already in use where pets are concerned. Give it 50 years and we'll all be carrying one.
I'm so anti the idea of ID cards/chips ( ) that I am perfectly willing to move to another country to avoid it. I'm sure that there are many other nations around that would value my expertese and work if the UK doesn't want it, so to you, Mr Bliar! You people that are not worried about HMG (the government) knowing every aspect of your lives: remember that this scheme does not mean that just this government, or the next government, or the one after that has your details; EVERY government until it is repealed will have 24/7 access to every niggling little detail of your lives. You might think this a bit of an extreme view, but think 20 years into the future. If we look at current trends in voter apathy and extrapolate them a couple of decades into the future, it would not be all that unsurprising to find the BNP, NF or similarly disgusting party in power -- and if so, may the Lord have mercy upon us all. Just think what they'd (mis)use the system to do!
