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Modding Building a Mineral Oil Cooled PC - 1/22/09 | Preliminary Drawings

Discussion in 'Modding' started by legoman666, 23 Jan 2009.

  1. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    It's that time again! This will be my 3rd project worklog that I have posted on bit-tech.

    My first was my Wooden PC, completed in early 2004:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Worklog: http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=38878 (pics are all dead)

    My second was my Aluminum/Copper PC, completed early 2008:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Worklog: http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=145057

    And that brings us to now, I present to you: The Mineral Oil PC!

    Here are my preliminary sketches:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Description of the general layout:

    Bottom compartment:
    2 Thermochill PA 120.3 Radiators: Link to product
    6 Noctua NF-P12 120mm Fans: Link to product
    1-2 Eheim 1250 120v Pumps: Link to product
    The fans on the front and back of the case blow inwards to feed the 6 fans (3 on each rad), which blow outwards. The bottom of the case will probably be mesh.

    Middle tank:
    Motherboard: ?
    CPU: ?
    RAM: ?
    2 HD4850's: Link to product
    Silverstone ST75F 750W PSU: Link to product
    OCZ Modstream 450W PSU (for the pelt): Link to product
    D-Tek Fuzion CPU Waterblock: Link to Product
    2 Thermalright T-Rad^2 GPU Coolers: Link to Product
    226w Peltier (for the CPU): Link to product
    I still haven't chosen my setup because I want to go with a Core i7, but they're pretty pricey at the moment. I'm hoping that by the time I buy the parts, the price will have dropped. If they don't decrease by the time I'm ready to make my choice, I'll probably buy 2 SSD's for some RAID 0 sweetness with a S775 config. Otherwise, my platter HDD's will go in the upper compartment.

    Top Compartment:
    2x WD 500gb GP Hard Drives (maybe)
    2x WD 250gb Hard Drives (maybe)
    The top is an exit for cables from the"back" (top in my config) of the motherboard. If I don't go with SSD's, I'll have my hard drives in this compartment too. As you can see in the pics, the tray will have 2 handles for easy removal from the oil. Everything that will be submerged in the oil will be attached to the tray. The top of the case will also be hinged for easy access to the oil.

    I figured this was my chance for sub ambient cooling. Since there is no air in the case, I can safely cool down to below the dew temperature without having to water proof everything. That's why I'm going with the pelt. (It will get it's own PSU).

    And that's all for now. I'm not sure when I'll start buying materials, I think I might look for some sponsors first; this setup is going to be pricey.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2009
  2. Zeroignite

    Zeroignite So I decided to simulate a Universe

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    Sweet, another person doing this. Check out the link in my sig, and tell me what you think about my plans.
    Will you attach the mobo tray via sliding rails, or with a screw-on bar at the top? Also, what's the point of the oil if you have a waterblock on the CPU? Most folks just pump the oil straight to the rad.

    :brrr:
     
  3. SiG

    SiG New Member

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    Haha, looking at the sketchup drawing I thought you were going to be using the Foxconn BloodRage thus making this an i7 system. Of course, that would require a massive budget and you've already mentioned your uncertainty due to costs and the possibility of sponsorship etc.

    Additionally, I'm sure all of us have had ideas of tinkering with Mineral Oil computers at some point or another, so you'll definitely find plenty of support and ideas.
    My two cents (for the time being :D ) could be that the hotter components may be getting their own dedicated cooling 'ducts'/channels in order to maximise the properties of the thermal environment that submersion delivers? Something like a watercooling loop operating inside a submerged pc (or at least that's an idea I've had). (Which of course then comes to the issue that the tubing will attempt to release heat into the rest of the mineral oil, but that could be seen as a plus maybe since it means the loop could cool itself a bit before hitting the radiator(s) )

    Anywho, I shall stop now before I get too carried away and possibly revive my own Submersion/Mineral Oil dreams.

    Oh, and subscribed. :p
     
  4. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    I saw your post. You're crazy for attempting to seal the ports! I don't think they're sealable. Oil will probably be able to leak through the ports themselves, not just around them.

    Anyway, my plan is sliding rails with maybe some way to lock it in either position (up or down). And now that you mention it, I'm not 100% certain I should use a water block. In comparison to air cooling, the point of the water block is that the water flowing through it can carry away more heat than a heatsink can dissipate into the air. But in an oil cooled system, the oil flowing past a heatsink might have a higher heat removal capacity than a waterblock. I'll have to research and think about it. Good point! I might be able to get away with a single pump.

    I've whipped together several system configurations in the past few days based on my needs. Because of the heatsinks I have on the 4850's (I already own the 4850's and the heatsinks), I need 2 slots between the two PCIe 16x slots. I also need a usable 1x slot for a sound card. A usable PCI slot for a wireless card would also be very nice, but isn't 100% necessary. A few examples of motherboards that fit this profile:
    The Foxconn Bloodrage
    The ASUS P5E Deluxe
    The Gigabyte GA-X38-DS4 (which I currently own and use)

    I'm currently torn between a high end S775 system and a spanking new i7 system. Each setup has its pros and cons.
    Pros for the i7 system:
    upgradability
    overclockability of the CPU
    Cons for the i7:
    Price
    Last of choice for boards that fit my needs (I think the $310 Bloodrage is my only option. It does look amazing however.)
    Price

    Pros for a s775 system:
    I can use the extra money saved by not going i7 and buy 2 SSDs for RAID 0 sweetness.
    More choice in motherboards.
    Can buy more RAM for the money.

    Cons for the s775:
    lack of future upgradability. I've bought into a socket near the end of its lifespan before and I'm not sure I want to repeat the mistake (s939).

    So I'll have to think about my options. I'm open to opinions.
     
  5. SkyLord77

    SkyLord77 Use your teeth not a Dremel

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    I really love this idea of using not on the the mineral oil submersion, but the addition of the Peltier's. :clap::clap::clap:

    I'd love to see how effective the cooling of the Peltier's will be while submerged. Really interesting.

    As with your other builds I'm sure this one will be awesome. Subscribed.
     
  6. Zeroignite

    Zeroignite So I decided to simulate a Universe

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    When I want to go subzero, I think I'll just trow a few rocks of carbon dioxide in the tank.
    Yes, I may be crazy to try to seal the posts. Guess bench testing will show just how possible this is.

    As for cooling, I recommend:
    CPU>Peltier>Heatsink>Oil>Radiator.
     
  7. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Thanks for the confidence.

    Small change to the layout, PSU's mounted in the back. I can decrease the height of the tank by doing this and not have to build the motherboard frame extensions on the bottom; now it can be mounted on the side.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    [​IMG]

    Just playing with the model more.

    Are MCP655's submersible? I can't fit my pump(s) in the bottom compartment. I realized this when I replaced the radiator models with model's of the radiators I'll actually be using. If I can't submerge the MCP655, I'll have to stick with Eheim pumps...

    Anyone know?
     
    Last edited: 25 Jan 2009
  9. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Decided not to go with MCP655's because I don't know if they're submersible. I'll be using a Eheim 120v 1250. It is fully submersible because it's an aquarium pump.

    [​IMG]

    The pump will intake oil from the bottom of the compartment and pump it to the CPU, through the rads, and then to two outlets next to the video cards. I figure I'll get good circulation this way and make sure all of the hot spots are covered.
     
  10. SkyLord77

    SkyLord77 Use your teeth not a Dremel

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    This is what I found in looking for info on that MCP655.

    I know that's not much, but it's all I could find.

    I tried to contact Swiftech directly for you, and I'm still awaiting a reply.

    I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to seeing this build completed. :rock:
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2009
  11. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Thanks! My bet is that it would work under oil, but I might as well use a pump designed for use under water (oil?). Besides, I just found a Eheim 1250 for sale on my local craigslist, so I'm going to go pick that up today after work.

    I'm thinking of going with this setup:
    Asus Crosshair II Formula: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131292 (I'll probably get the open box, its only $175 and in stock)
    AMD Phenom II 940 X4 Black Edition: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103471 (overclock = win)
    8gb Geil 1000mhz DDR2: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231145 (already have 4gb of the same stuff, runs great at 1140mhz)

    This will be a lot cheaper than an i7 setup and still offers more upgradability than a S775 system.
     
    Last edited: 26 Jan 2009
  12. Cheapskate

    Cheapskate Insane? or just stupid?

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    The hardest part of a mineral oil submerged computer is buying all the oil.
    -Props to you if you can pick out the cutest checkout girl there, and as she's scanning all your lube, ask her if she has plans that weekend.
     
  13. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Dammit you just made me laugh out loud at work.
     
  14. Cheapskate

    Cheapskate Insane? or just stupid?

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    God forbid someone be happy at work...:D
     
  15. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Good news! Got two sponsors!

    First is Danger Den!
    [​IMG]
    I'd like to thank Dan Stephen for helping me out, so go there and buy stuff!

    Secondly is Petra's Tech Shop!
    [​IMG]
    I'd like to thank Alex Venz for the support. PTS will be supplying a XSPC RX360 Radiator which should go nicely with my low speed Noctua fans.

    On to the update....

    Today it snowed ~5-6" overnight, so I wasn't able to make it into work. So I whittled away the day doing absolutely nothing productive. It was great. Looks like I might be stuck at home tomorrow, since it's been freezing rain/sleeting for the past 2-3 hours and we're supposed to get 4-6" more snow by the morning (it's 9:45 PM).

    Here's what I did:

    [​IMG]
    I modeled the Asus Crosshair II AM2 motherboard. At this time, it looks like I'm going to go with an AMD setup, unless some other sponsors come through. The latest hardware list:
    ASUS Crosshair II Formula
    Phenom II X4 940
    8gb G.SKILL 1000mhz DDR2

    It also turns out that I was seriously uninformed about TECs. The Phenom 940 is 125W TDP which means about 150w at full load. To get a deltaT of 30C between the hotside and cool side of the pelt, I would need to have a pelt with almost 400w of cooling power, which translates into something ridiculous like 600w worth of pelts. The 226w pelt I was going to buy would have produced a deltaT of 11.5C with almost no room for overclocking.

    So it looks like I'm going to stick the most massive heatsink I can find on my CPU: the Thermalright IFX-14 Extreme

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Getting rid of the pelt allows me to have a single PSU instead of 2 and make the case smaller and thus cheaper.

    I still need to do a lot of work on the model, it's just very tedious. I'm using the Windows 7 Beta at the moment and the hardware acceleration of Google SketchUp doesn't work. Even with a Q6600 @ 3.55ghz it's wrist-slitting-slow.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    With any luck, I'll order the raw materials for the case (aluminum sheet, bar and angle, and the plexiglass) by the end of the week. Construction will commence when it arrives.
     
  16. SkyLord77

    SkyLord77 Use your teeth not a Dremel

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    I dunno about that Delta T.

    Maybe I'm wrong and I most likely am since I'm relativly new to this, but according to my equation of Delta T = (1 - ( Max Heat Load / Max Cooling ) * 69 ) I see this result.

    With your CPU thermal activity of 150 W and a Pelt of 340 W you'd get a Delta T of 38.56 C.

    If you did run a 226 W TEC you'd be at a Delta T of 23.2.

    As well with a 226 W TEC you'd have 376 W of thermal energy to dissipate. If you ran a 340 you'd have 490 W. That's quite a bit.

    Like I said I may be wrong.

    Other than that I think your design is stellar! With or without TEC's this rig is going to be downright awesome! :rock:
     
  17. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    226W is the amount of cooling power the pelt has when running at 100%, otherwise known as the Qmax. The amount of power it uses when running at 100% is Imax x Vmax, which for the 226w pelt is 24A x 15.2V = 364.8w. I wouldn't be running it at 15.2V, I'd be running it at 12V.To find the new Qmax, we do the following: 12V / 15.2V * 24A = 18.94A. 18.94A is the new Imax. 18.94A * 12V = 227.4W. 227 is the amount of power it would draw, not the cooling capacity. The cooling capacity is P = I^2 * R. So my R = 226 / 24^2 = .392. Running at 12v, my pelt could cool (18.94) ^ 2 * .392 = 140.62W.

    Which brings us back to the original problem, what would the deltaT be. deltaT = (1-load/capacity)*69. In my case, assuming a 125w TDP, I would see a 7.7C deltaT. That leaves little to no room for overclocking.

    Math from here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=67927 and here: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=38367
     
    Last edited: 28 Jan 2009
  18. Cheapskate

    Cheapskate Insane? or just stupid?

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    I will say it again... 'Copy/new file/paste in place' is your friend. When you have the lag problem, working with only the bare parts you need in a separate file is necessary. Other things to help your lag problem would be to turn off the textures and shadows.

    Congratulations on getting sponsors.:D
     
  19. legoman666

    legoman666 Beat to fit, paint to match.

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    Yea, I typically work in a new instance whenever I'm working on something small/specific. However, when I want to put everything together it's very slow.
     
  20. pimonserry

    pimonserry sounds like a party.

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    Subscribed.
    This is gonna be a good one ;)

    And I was wondering, why were you planning on water cooling if it's oil-submerged? I thought the whole of idea of the (non-electrically conductive) oil was that it dissipates the heat..
    You could even set up a pump and waterblock but no res.. just have tubes flopping into the oil mix xD
    Also, intriguing, for less stickyness (but more risk) you could use distilled/deionised water instead of oil, just to show off ;) However, water's specific heat capacity is high, so the heat might stick around your components abit more :/
     

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