ROFLMAO. Are you for real? You invade iraq, bomb its civilians, practically level a whole city, leave the hospitals and museums unguarded whilst the oil ministry receives protection, round up its Government and install your own man, and you're not "attacking the country"? The US invaded Iraq. The US invaded Afghanistan. Now you're dealing with the consequences. Sam
oh it definatly was. Ill have to find a copy of the news cast. im sure it will be on the interweb somewhere. Yes i can, he was representing your country going to war. we will find out if i did when i find the news cast Iraq mk2 who knows? I can't think of anything but some non existant WMD's and oil. Edit- found out what and who it was said by - US Vice Admiral Timothy Keating on board USS Constellation on eve of war, to strains of Queen's We Will Rock You: "Make no mistake, when the president says go - look out, it's hammer time." I dont think i took it to out of context. I forgot about the we will rock you music in the background as well.
The old platitude (a remark or statement that has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful - OED) "They're just jealous of you" is what mummy tells her little boy or girl when they come in crying after the other kids have called them names; makes you feel good but very rarely true. Perhaps you should be addressing the reasons why virtually every other country disapproves of the actions of the American government and its military arm? Instead of taking comfort from a fatuous remark that saves any conscience-searching? There's no widespread public protest against US international policies within the US, so, as Bush might say, "If you're not against them, then you're with them."
What we see and feel here in Europe about Us International Policies is not what you guys see in the US. I wonder why....??? "There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it. There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone. "The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." ( Source: Labor's Untold Story, by Richard O. Boyer and Herbert M. Morais, published by United Electrical, Radio & Machine Workers of America, NY, 1955/1979. )
Simple fact: the US trained Osama Bin Laden to be the terrorist he is --because he was trying to kick the Russians out of Afghanistan with the Mujahideen and that suited the US fine. The US also supported the Mujahideen directly. When the Taliban came to power (with the aid of Pakistan) the U.S. government was well aware of the Taliban's reactionary program, yet it chose to back their rise to power in the mid-1990s and encouraged Saudi Arabia and Pakistan to support the Taliban. When the Taliban took power, State Department spokesperson Glyn Davies said that he saw "nothing objectionable" in the Taliban's plans to impose strict Islamic law, and Senator Hank Brown, chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Subcommittee on the Near East and South Asia, welcomed the new regime: "The good part of what has happened is that one of the factions at last seems capable of developing a new government in Afghanistan." "The Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis. We can live with that," said another U.S. diplomat in 1997. The US supported Saddam Hussein and sold him weapons (including those WMD they now so worry about) because he was at war with Iran, and that suited the US fine (Bush says: "If you're not with us, you're against us". Perhaps Iran feels the same about a country that supported its aggressor). Funnily enough, the US also sold weapons to Iran at the same time (Iran-Contra affair, remember that one?). Which neatly brings me to the Contras, the armed opponents of Nicaragua's Sandinista government. The Contras initially received financial and military support from a.o. the U.S. through the CIA. Later the Contras received aid clandestinely from the US by rogue elements within the administration of US President Ronald Reagan. The contras mostly attacked civilian targets such as coffee plantations and farming cooperatives. They were opposed by most Nicaraguans and human rights groups who viewed their tactics as brutal and indiscriminate. Sounds like terrorists to me --funded and supported by the US. In 1997 the U.S. government was forced to publicly admit that it runs a school that has trained numerous Latin American dictators, generals and death-squad leaders who, as graduates of the SOA, have committed innumerable atrocities in their home countries. I suggest you Google for "Operation Condor". The US a source of terrorism? And then some. I could go on like this for hours. Thanks for completely ignoring the fact that the US does the same to other countries in spades. I could go on like this, but why bother? You refuse to believe what you don't want to believe. Learn some political history before joining this conversation. Meanwhile I have a life to get on with.
First flaw- that information comes from the BBC. Anyways, somehow, it seems the statement in bold has been competely disregarded. Those few words change the whole meaning of "hammer time". Admiral Timothy Keating expressed his belief that the US would win whatever war he was referring to at the time. What is the problem with that? By the way, has anyone ever said that they fully support what the Admiral said? CT Hippo- in response to the article you quoted about a meer 3,000 protestors, do you understand how small a percentage of the population 3000 is? Believe me, if there were more people who disliked the war in Iraq, I'm sure I would have meet at least one of them by now, and I also doubt Pres. Bush would still be in office. CT Hippo, when you depart this country I shall celebrate. Uncle Psychosis- If you actually believe that the war in Iraq was aimed at the citizens of Iraq then you are truely an idiot. Civilian casualties? Yeah, that probbably happens in every war. Interesting paragraph. However, you have proved only one thing- previous government officials in the US caused problems. You have also proved that at the time, some of their actions were justified. I never claimed that every president of the US was perfect, I have not claimed any of them are perfect. What I have stated is the fact that I believe the current president does not have "Support radical terrorist group" listed on his agenda. Even more so, you have proved that the Taliban has become true terrorist- why did they attack the US if the US supported the Taliban? You see, there is one fact that you can not deny- the Taliban attacked the United States, and is continuing to make more threats to attack the US and other countries. Do you actually believe there is any way possible to justify the actions of the Taliban? You practically worship a terrorist group and claim the US is the true evil. Just to make the matter even better, this terrorist group does not like Eurpoe either. Yet somehow, through this all, in your sick twisted mind you seek a way to blame every problem on the United States. That is the CHILDISH JEALOUSY AND LACK OF RESPONSABIITY WHICH YOU CLAIM EXISTS IN THE US. By the way, can anyone please respond to these remarks from Bloodsmoke: Or would that go against the crusade of "we hate America!"? What about the fact that France released thost cartoons? For one thing, that proves Europe (at least France) is not as perfect as you want to pretend it is. Back to the original topic: Once again Nexxo, your continuing to misquote important information. What was the reason the US supported the Contra? Because Nicaragua was in the middle of a shift to a Soviet-supported, communist-led government. The US opposed Sovier communist governments, therefore Mr. Reagan supported the Contra. Thanks for even more misquotations. Operation Condor was started by various contries in Latin America, and one of it's goals was counter-terrorsim. Yes, it is possible for the US to support counter-terrorism. You are right that those two events ended un-desireably. However, what you have failed to point out is the cause for those events. No, not quite true. I'll admit the US past is not perfect. What I won't believe is your misquoations aimed at making the US look bad. Theres another reason I don't believe much of anything you say Nexxo. I'd like to direct your attention to one of my previous posts, you convientally avoided this information: I'm anxious to hear a resoponse. L J
Erm...the Taliban weren't responsible for 9/11...nor was Saddam...nor Iran...nor Hammas...not N Korea either... Unfortunately, I know you're not alone in thinking they're all in it together, you've no doubt heard it on TV, seen it in the press, listened to Bush. I see Bush is at home to IRA terrorist Gerry Adams. Biased BBC again, so probably untrue. Oh, maybe true, CNN has it.
I must correct you on this, because as you know there are many unanswered questions about 9/11... IMHO for ignoring all the warnings Bush Administration ALLOW the attack to the Two Towers.
I wonder why, lets have a look... My mind wants to explode at the sheer size of the generalisation on display here. The suggestion is that because of a few protestors, who were condemned by the Muslim Association of Great Britain, all 'Islamic citizens' are dangerous. Lets extent that sort of 'logic' shall we...I'll make a similar statement. All Christians are terrorists, because some Christians bombed up an abortion clinic and threatened many other doctors with death. Would you accept that as being a legitimate statement, or would you treat it as the crass generalization that it really is, noting that not all Christians act in such a violent manner (in a way similar to the FACT that most Muslims are not engaging in suicide bombings and such like). As for all your excuses about the Contras and so forth, simply stating that such acts are 'counter-terrorist' or part of measures to counter some 'Communist insurgency' does not actually make it so - the reality was, the US backed, trained, funded, and supported many groups across the globe who engaged in massive indiscriminate human rights violations, often whilst denying it or calling it something else and hoping the reality wouldn't get noticed. Let me tell you - when you start reading into it seriously, it does get noticed, and its a bloody eye opener - I'm doing a degree in international politics, and whilst I love America (as i stated before, I have family there), reading up on the reality behind some of their foreign policy actions and the unsavoury activities they regrettably engaged in really makes me feel sick. Now its not a black and white case, European nations engaged in the same, the UK did, the Soviets did, the Chinese did...Iran and Iraq and probably well all/most of the other regimes in the Middle East have all been involved in some pretty nasty and scandalous episodes in their recent history. This is not some anti-US tirade, as you seem to think. The reason we highlight some of that the US has been engaged in, is to try and get home the message that terrorist attacks don't come out of nowhere. We're not saying that the US is evil and everybody else is beyond reproach, because thats not true either! But the idea that the US has never done anything morally dubious or murderous in terms of conducting its foreign policy is just ludicrous - to deny that the US has done anything which might cause someone to want to bomb US cities, is to deny the reality of the problem you (and we in the west in general, lest we forget London on July 7th & Madrid) face. You want to live free from terrorism, well I want you to as well - from a purely selfish point of view that means my relatives are safe, never mind the fact that people dieing is never a good thing. FYI, my cousin Mark was flying out of the Boston on the morning of 9/11...makes me wonder 'what if' sometimes. But if you want to really reduce the threat of terrorism then you have to examine the reality behind the causes of terrorism, not bury your head in the sand and ignore the wrongs of your governments past and present. Questioning the government is not unpatriotic - part of democracy is discussion and debate, which means asking awkward questions. To question US foreign policy is not to hate the US - its to try and work out whether there is a better way of doing things that has a less negative impact on the rest of the world at certain times, and less chance of a 9/11 style event every happening in your country again. If you can't accept this for what it is, then you're a lost cause
Er... yeah... we all know how dodgy that news service is... The US supported people and organisations which showed every sign opf having terrorist tendencies as long as (and because) it supported their cause at the time. Surprises surprise, it blew up in their face... And the Taliban never attacked the US. It was attacked by the US because it was deemed to be assisting Osama Bin Laden in hiding out in Afghanistan (in any case it wasn't exactly hindering him). The US went after Osama, and the Taliban, regarded as helping him, was in the way. No, I don't. Which is why I think it is worrying that the US supported it when it suited it. Getting personal and accusing me of being a terrorist sympathiser does not help advocating your viewpoint (and it looks like you're having a childish hissy fit --this is what I was talking about...). But then again, this seems a popular tactic towards anyone questioning US policy these days. I guess I am being "unpatriotic". --which were terrorists (or was that freedom fighters? Depends on which side you take, doesn't it?). QED. ...by supporting terrorists of opposing causes. OK, to answwe ryour first "facts": 1. I don't like people/politicians advocating freedom, self-determination and democracy and then happily violating those principles for personal gain while destabilising the political and economical world stage. We are supposed to be the good guys. This means that we have to be the good guys. We do not have the same options as the bad guys. 2. I think that war is a means that is rarely justified by the end. Usually the price paid is too big, and it is always paid by the people who had least to gain by going to war, and least to do with its cauese. 3. I see the results of what happens when the US negotiates with other countries on a daily basis. Not all news is biased (well, not anymore than US news in any case). Other people do to. This is why so many people world-wide are pissed off with the US. It is not always deserved, not always unbiased, but it is never without reason. 4. The US is behaving like a bully. Many other countries do too (including my own), but the US is the biggest bully on the block and therefore gets away with a lot more. I'm not going to go on with long posts quoting fact because: 1. I've done it before, and it gets tedious; 2. you won't read it, because it would be a long post; 3. you won't believe any of it anyway; 4. you're getting personal. That is always a time to best call it a day.
one of the most respected sources of information in the world? a flaw? wtf? you dont fell that him saying something like that with the we will rock you tune blaring out in the background sickening? does the US not take war as a serious buisness? do they care about anyone who is not an american who dies? War should be something a country regrets turning to, not enjoy turning to. well iv never heard of him retracting his statments. which he would have been forced to if other high up people did not agree with what he said.
I hate to tell you mate, but our news is pretty heavily censored. If you want to see the real gist of the **** that is happening in our country, watch the BBC news. I'm one of those people who doesn't support the war in Iraq. Seriously, just how the hell am I going to approve of a war that's happening just to line the pockets of the asshats in office. Bush is a complete moron and Cheney is no better. We have a President who almost chokes to death on a pretzel and a Vice President who shoots one of his friends during a hunting trip. Yeah, a couple of bright people we have in office there... You seem to be one of the people who are brainwashed from the liberal ******** that's broadcast on the news on a daily basis. I'm not taking the piss out of you, just stating an opinion. There is no reason that we should really be in the middle east. The "fight on terrorism" is the biggest load of bull that I've ever heard. If we wouldn't have butted our nose in years and years ago in the first place then we wouldn't have to deal with alot of this in the first place. In all honesty, we should pull our troops out of there completely.... not all at once but over the next year or so. [sarcasm] George W. Bush is really the person I want in office. [/sarcasm] Let's see.... We're fighting a war that has nothing to do what they say it does. He's giving up control of our major ports to a foreign run country and has stated that if Congress tries to block it, he'll veto it so it passes.... something fishy going on there. Wiretapping calls in the name of "fighting terrorism"... yeah, more like imposing complete and total government control of everything that we do. George Bush seems to be trying to lead us more into communism then a democracy. Sure he's helped create millions of jobs since he came into office but they're all minimum wage **** jobs. I'd like to see you try and live off of minimum wage nowadays... it's not possible (unless you live with your mommy and daddy still and have absolutely no bills to pay.)
First thing, yes I'll admit to confusing the Taliban with al-Qeda, or which ever terrorist group is responsible for 9/11. With as many groups as there, it is difficult to remember exaclty what each has done. Nexxo- I hardly consider that a personal attack. I meerly pointed out a fact based on how you misrepresented every piece of information in your post in an attempt to blame the US for the problems with the world. Why do you misrepresent that information? Why do you show any from of support for the terrorist? Why do you show any sign of support for groups and countries which today are proving to be a threat? Why do you try to claim that the US actions are those of a "bully" when the actions are actually quite careful and well planned, when there is an obvious threat? Yes, some of that threat came from the US. However, at the time when the US did questionable acts, that was under an old administration, and those acts were justifiable at the time. I do not consider those acts a bad thing for the US because of the fact that outside forces made those groups "bad". What has the US done that caused Osama Bin Laden, to set up attacks against the US? The reason- because the US opposes corrupt forms of government and terrorism. When you get down to the truth, that is the reason. With that I shall depart from this thread. It is getting very far off topic, and trying to reason never works. There is no way anyone here will willingy admit they are wrong. Many times, the mentality of a forum comes down to another poster saying 2 + 2 = 5, and he or she will argue that point until they are banned. I have made my points, I believe they are all valid. L J
ROFLMAO! Seriously mate, you think our government is all squeeky clean? Our governement only opposes such things where it's a threat to our government. All other times it's fully supported. Do you honestly think that our government even gives a damn about us? They really don't...they only care that you send in that nice portion of your paycheck every pay period. Nexxo.... the area that I live in used to be at the top of the list of cities to be attacked if another country was to attack us. This is because of the sheer amount of chemical plants that used to be around here. Mind you though, this was in the 1950s but even today a nice bomb or missle here would devastate a large chunk of the eastern coast. I'm quite happy that memories of war on my homeland have long since faded by personal accounts and is only told in history books nowadays, but with today modern means, it's only a matter of time before there's a war starting here. And in all honesty, I don't see it being another country attacking us. The Unites States won't fall from a blow from another country but from an internal collapse. The cracks are already showing, so just how much longer is it going to take?
The BBC is a liberal rag no better than CNN or NBC Can you please elaborate on how the war is lining the pockets of anyone in office? So choking on food has some sort of bearing on intellegence? Can you tell me how? You mean to tell me you never choked on something or got somehting stuck in your throat...... Hunting Accident the man he shot even said it was an accident, how does this have anything on his vice presidency.... Now your not makeing any sence, your the one brainwashed by the liberal left if you dont understand the fundimental differences between liberal and conservative how can any of your opinions be taken seriously. .....This would solve what? lets pull out when the job isn't completed....lets pull out and have the Iraqi people just go at eachother.....clearly this idea was really thought out... George Bush did what 75% of Americans thought was the correct thing to do 3 years ago, and i feel still was the right thing to do, Bush doesn't have the luxury to change his mind Nice opinion but from what i'v seen gas prices have gone up, so how can you say it's for oil, beacuse thats what the liberal media told you to think.... What is the problem with this? People say that the President is Anti-Muslim and now that a muslim country gets the lowest bid to do a job all of a sudden, no one wants them to do the job. Why not? Just another way to be anti Bush...... The FBI have been tapping phone calls for years you act like this is something new.... You act like millions of minimum wage jobs are nothing.......if these people were more skilled maybe they could get a better job. Most people in the world would be happy to make minimum wage....Lets raise minimum wage that would solve everything.....tell me, where does the money come from? unskilled workers get low paying jobs
Three words: The Carlyle Group -both Bush Senior and Junior have had or do have links and business ties. Senior is on the board and a Senior Advisor. The Carlyle group are an investment firm with a huge number of "secret" investors (one of which is again Bush senior), much of their "investing" is in defence spending so they stand to gain from American wars. Bush senior and junior's pockets can be seen as the same i feel, there are other links but this is the most high profile i'm aware of. see: http://www.thecarlylegroup.com/eng/company/l3-company737.html and: http://www.angelfire.com/indie/pearly/htmls/bush-carlyle.html (from 2001) and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group
Lets see, prehaps raised taxes? Lower wages for the top 25% of earners? Reduced taxes for lower earners? A cut in profits? None of those seem a bad idea to me. If the minimum wage was raised then companies would find a way to manage and those that couldnt could potentialy recieve government support.
The top 20% pay 80% of the taxes, but a typical liberal response, lets tax the rich more..... If you cut skilled workers pay they will go get a job elsewhere. Most american companies that still have unskilled workers that work in the US and are affected by minimumwage have razer thin profit margins. Unskilled is the key word why should a guy that has no education get payed $10 an hour to flip a burger. If every able bodied worker actually got a job taxes could be lower for everyone because the government wouldn't have to support ablebodied people that are a drain on society. The Bushes had linkes the The Carlyle Group before they went into office and Cheney had links to Haliburton, this was public record before they were elected. Being a smart investor and lining your pockets are two totaly separate ways of makeing money, one is criminal. Millions of people had something to gain from the war in Iraq. Lets not forget the Iraqi people who can line their pockets with freedom......
No. That isn't the people being anti-President Bush. That is just the people being against Muslims. I think you're gonna need to back up this "liberal rag BBC" thing, because without backup this sounds like ********. Hmm, as to choking on a pretzel not indicating intelligence, you have a point there, bloodsmoke. But if you'd like I could refer you to a dozen websites containing quotes from President Bush's speeches when he misquotes people, uses incorrect grammar, etc. Would they also earn the title of being liberal rags? "liberal" = Democrats these days, Democrats are against the war, so, yeah. But, the prices going up proves the theory of the war being for oil... The difference is, now, they are doing it illegally, whereas before, they had to go through the courts.
