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Bush wants marriage reserved for heterosexuals

Discussion in 'Serious' started by stewe151, 31 Jul 2003.

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  1. MadSkunkBurner

    MadSkunkBurner What's a Dremel?

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    Well said ZAP - marriage is a religious covenant and according to religion homosexuality is not acceptable. It is basically as cut and dry as that...

    By letting homosexuals marry you are making the act of marriage even more meaningless than it is becoming in society in this day and age.

    I am in no way anti gay - but marriage in it's truest sense is not 'designed' for homosexuals.
     
  2. :: kna ::

    :: kna :: POCOYO! Moderator

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    Nothing, that's what's a Civil wedding is.. the marriage certificate is actually the legal component of a wedding. Religious ones just have all the god stuff at the front of it and civil ones have whatever they want.

    Forget what legal rights are awarded to you once you're married, Homosexuals are fighting for the right to sign the same document as everyone else does and as that document is nothing to do with religion, why stop it? The issue is that bush is poking his nose in where he shouldn't be.

    Is that in the same way that boats aren't designed for athiests because noah built an ark? I mean please; marriage is a celebration, a ceremony in civilised society and is nothing to do with religion unless the couple choose it to be. Sure, it had it roots there but the world goes on and develops.
     
  3. linear

    linear Minimodder

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    I guess if you don't accept that premise, then the conclusion doesn't follow quite so easily. Not everyone accepts it.
     
  4. :: kna ::

    :: kna :: POCOYO! Moderator

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    My marriage certificate, which is the same whatever wedding you have, doesn't have any religious text on it.. so I can't see how people can attach religious meaning to it?

    In fact I'm sure people were getting married well before the certificate was created.
     
  5. MadSkunkBurner

    MadSkunkBurner What's a Dremel?

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    The certificate is just a legal docment isn't it?

    It's the vows in the presence of both your witnesses and god is meant to be the religious part :)
     
  6. linear

    linear Minimodder

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    Don't get me wrong, I think marriage is fundamentally a societal institution. If societal pressures make it morph, then that's because it ostensibly better serves society. But if a few loud people want it to morph into something besides what it is, that doesn't quite add up to a societal imperative for me.

    Once you start digging around the roots of it, it's a bizarre institution really. Why just two people? can't three, six, or twelve people have love for each other, and publicly declare it? I mean surely if it's good for two, then it would be better with four?

    Why can't you marry your cousin if you really love him/her? Surely society should throw away that taboo, it's a holdover in the enlightened modern world. And may as well allow marriage between consanguine relatives while we're at it.

    (Please, I won't tolerate the demagoguery of anyone who reads the aboveand says that I "equate homosexuality with incest." The preceding was a rhetorical device, not a soundbite to be quoted out of context. Save that crap for the news media.)

    Obviously, I'm not seriously advocating any of those things, but it serves to illustrate that society has an idea of marriage. ("I don't know what marriage is, but I know one when I see one.") Maybe it's a bit too restrictive, formalistic, or stylized for your liking. But it's up to society to make the determination in the end. And Mr. Bush, as the leader of a large society, is doing exactly what he's supposed to, which is exhibit leadership in a social issue. The fact that you (referring to a number of the audience here) don't like his stance really doesn't mean that it's not his business to do so.
     
  7. Sid

    Sid Banned

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    You can marry your cousin actually... Well in the UK anyway.

    No real point arguing about this anymore, it's kinda just the traditional religious people against the athiests now.
     
  8. freeyourmind212

    freeyourmind212 What's a Dremel?

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    I seem to be getting the impression that people think all religions are against homosexuality. This is not true at all! I am Christian and belong to a Christian church, whose congregation happens to include a homosexual couple. Why do people think homosexuality and religion can't mix?
    I don't see the difference between a homosexual couple and a heterosexual one. Why should one have the right to marry each other when the other doesn't?
    Linear, I don't understand how you think nothing is being denied. A straight person can marry the person he or she wants to, but a homosexual person can't.
    Think about if things were reversed. If the majority of the world was homosexual, and the majority of religions were opposed against you, though your own religion was not.
    I don't see how this is any different than making interracial marriages illegal, and so on.
     
  9. linear

    linear Minimodder

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    Well there are a lot of reasons. The Pope seems to think that homosexuality is in fact a perversion. In fact, let me quote him directly:

    I'm not sure I quite line up with that stance myself. I'm more of the "okay if we give you this, what possible use is it?" viewpoint. I'll concede that a lot of homosexuals seem to want it very badly--I just can't really determine why. And candidly, the very vocal advocates of gay marriage seem a bit petulant to me. That's just my opinion of course, they have a right to act petulant I suppose.


    That boils down to whether you think homosexuality is a choice or not. That particular flamewar does fall quite neatly along religious lines. No one chooses their race. Some may espouse the view that you choose to be homosexual, others don't. I don't really know, myself. Of course, current PC thinking is that you're born homosexual. I guess to reconcile that with religion (Judeo-Christian tradition anyhow, I'm not really a scholar of world religion) you'd need to be a celibate homosexual to be a religious homosexual, I think the old testament is fairly clear in that respect.

    I guess I just don't really understand what's so desirable about being married if your gay. I haven't really heard any arguments in favor of it so far that don't amount to "It's a terrible injustice that straight people can get married and gays can't." I don't really see a concrete reason. I know that much jubilation ensued when Canada legalised gay marriage. I don't see how it changed anyone's lives in a concrete fashion. I'm very willing to listen to an explanation.
     
  10. MadSkunkBurner

    MadSkunkBurner What's a Dremel?

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    May I respectfully suggest that you read your bible? Homosexuality is not acceptable within the Christian religion! It may be tolerated but that does not make it acceptable...


    Remember Sodom and Gamora (*spelling unsure)???

    I have not been a church goer for many years but if you would like me to find chapter and verse for you then I will see what I can do ;)
     
  11. Sid

    Sid Banned

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    "So God let them go ahead and do what-ever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew to be the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshipped the things God made but not the creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

    That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved"

    -Romans Chapter 2 Verses 24-27


    Sums it up I think
     
  12. freeyourmind212

    freeyourmind212 What's a Dremel?

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    So now people are telling me that my religion is wrong. :eyebrow: May I remind you those are my beliefs, and frankly, I don't care if you disagree. (If I had my bible next to me, I'd point you to all of the passages that are extremely degrading to women, and the ones that promote slavery. I'm *hoping* you don't agree with those.)

    The only way I can answer the question of why people think homosexuals 'choose' to be that way is by saying those people must have never met a homosexual. I know it sounds cliche, but did you choose to be straight?

    Linear, are you married? If not, do you want to be married someday? How would you feel if this right was denied to you? If you want to only look at the legal prospects, there are several things, such as not being able to claim Social Security benefits and so on. It is not the actual rights that come with a marriage that I want to look at though. In the 60s African Americans had to drink out of separate water fountains because of their race. I think we can agree that this is a good deal less significant than marriage, and yet I hope we can agree that it would be horrible to bring this back.
     
  13. cpemma

    cpemma Ecky thump

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    Not really, the bible, OT in particular, also accepts human sacrifice (Abraham's son, even, though Big G let him off), slavery (providing they're on the other side) and plenty more practices now considered morally unacceptable. Other times, other ways.

    With current divorce rates, it's very hard to justify a church marriage as "more valuable" than a civil marriage. It's generally just a nice back-drop for the photos, and the couple (in 72.34% of UK cases) won't go in a church again until the christening. Pure hypocrisy.

    Back on topic, there are many instances where the law is grossly unfair on partners who haven't got a marriage certificate, gay or straight, particularly if the partner dies without leaving a will.

    Forget the ceremony, these are the areas the governments both sides of the pond should straighten up.
     
  14. Sid

    Sid Banned

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    Yet again, you completely misinterpret everything. You asked why people think homosexuality and religion can't mix. I gave you a quote which showed why people think it can't, thus explaining.
     
  15. Fly

    Fly inter arma silent leges

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    Well, I hope this doesn't degenerate into a flame-war/slanging match because it raises a few valid points.

    The dictionary.com definition of marriage is as follows:

    marriage:

    1.
    a. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife.
    b. The state of being married; wedlock.
    c. A common-law marriage.
    d. A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage: a same-sex marriage.

    2. A wedding.

    3. A close union: “the most successful marriage of beauty and blood in mainstream comics” (Lloyd Rose).

    4. Games. The combination of the king and queen of the same suit, as in pinochle.

    So, as you can see, there are mentions already of same sex marriages in modern dictionaries as they evolve with the times. I am not going to get involved in an argument about the validity of same sex marriages before God because I am an Atheist, but I can understand the need for the legal side of it. In some cases non-married couples are discriminated against because they are not married (getting a mortgage, laws of inheritance, tax relief, etc), getting married in the eyes of the law solves most of these problems, so why shouldn't gay couples be offered that?



    As for what you said Zap:

    I can assure you that Civil weddings do take time, sacrifice and commitment, and I certainly did not pay "a few hundred bucks" for ours.


    That is very hurtful, I am just glad that my wife doesn't read these pages, comparing my marriage (which means more to me than anything) to a Hire Purchase agreement is not right.

    My wedding vows were written and spoken by my wife and I, and witness by our loved ones. The marriage vows are not on the marriage certificate (which, by the way, is taken from the same book used in a church wedding).

    I hope you are not suggesting the reason that people have civil weddings is for monetary benefit...

    Please consider other people's feelings before posting things like that, we all live our lifes the way we choose, and opinions can often cause offence if vented out aloud.
     
  16. freeyourmind212

    freeyourmind212 What's a Dremel?

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    No. You gave me a reason why your particular interpretation of the Christian bible, why your particular religion, and homosexuality do not mix. I wasn't arguing about what your beliefs are. I was simply saying that yes, there are religious homosexuals, and yes there are Christian homosexuals. I was asking why people thought homosexuals could not be religious basically.
    Edit: And while your post was not so accusing, MadSkunkBurner told me to read my bible and pretty much said I could not be a Christian and support homosexuality.
     
  17. Mr. Roboto

    Mr. Roboto xBurningMikex

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    I typed something pretty mean here..so I deleted it because I respect my position in here.

    Edited.
     
  18. ZapWizard

    ZapWizard Enter the Mod Matrix

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    I didn't mean to offend people with the notion that a civil marriage was less special then a religious marriage, I am sorry.

    I have quite a large family (6 in all)
    All of use are now married, 5 in the church, and 1 had a civil marriage.
    Out of all of us that were married in the Church, both husband and wife were all of the same church.

    My sister however left the church, had a suprise civil marriage.
    She just had her first baby (after 7 years of marriage) about 1.5 years ago now.
    Her husband who is an only child was at first intimiated by our large family (13 total kids among us now)
    But last christmas when he was with our family, he said something that really impressed on me:
    "I don't think we did it right"
    A year later, they are coming back to church, and in time they can take out religous vowes so that their civil marriage can become a sacred and blessed religious marriage.

    I also have in-laws who lived together for 7 years, had 5 kids, and finaly got married last year.
    And more in-laws that have lived together for 15 years, and are only now just planning their wedding.

    So I see the two marriages as very different from each other.

    I am not trying to say that a civil marriage is cheap, but that to me it doesn't include, well, any part of God in the process.

    It is a marriage of the state, until "death do you part"
    Yes, you still have all the same cerimonies, and receptions.
    And any marriage is special, and great.
    (Much better then people just living together)

    But for me marriage required a lot of time and commitment.
    I did not live or sleep with my wife before I was married, that alone should be hard enough for most people.
    I find most people now sleep together while dating, live together for years, and only later decide that marriage is the right thing to do.
     
  19. Ubermich

    Ubermich He did it!

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    I guess I just don't really understand what's so desirable about being married if you're straight. I haven't really heard any arguments in favor of it so far that don't amount to "well I'm straight and gays aren't so my way is right." I don't really see a concrete reason. ;)

    Honestly, so far the only reasoning I've heard for straight marriages being appropriate and gay marriages not is that straight marriages are normal.
    Wearing Nikes are normal
    Listening to pop music is normal
    Watching channel 5 every night at 8PM, 7PM central is normal...
    Since when has normal determined right or wrong?
     
  20. Ubermich

    Ubermich He did it!

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    There are some people who would suggest that abstinance and religion aren't necissarily so close-knit, myself included. I have a problem with the christian church (which I'll keep to myself as it's a whole 'nother story), but I will still follow a similar path. I've decided this not based on religious belief, not based on what I've been told, but based on what I think is morally correct in my personal opinion. I think it's wrong to use religion as an excuse for beliefs. In my opionion, right is right, and wrong is wrong.
     
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