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News Call of Duty 4 piracy is rampant

Discussion in 'Article Discussion' started by Tim S, 17 Jan 2008.

  1. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    NO NO NO!!!

    This is what drives me crazy, the assertion that zero piracy = more sales. If you want to encourage creativity you have to actually BUY THE GAME!. Merely stopping piracy will NOT help developers. My point, which seems to be missed consistently, is that there are lots more people willing to pirate a game than there are people willing or able to buy the game. I don't pirate, does that mean I'm helping the industry? No, because I also don't buy games when I can't afford them, and most of the games out there I wouldn't buy if they were charging 50 cents, much less 50 dollars.

    Another point, this is NOT a black and white issue. It's not a matter of anyone who doesn't hate pirates is one. It may well be that PC gaming as we know it is dying, but the causes are a whole lot more complicated that piracy.
     
  2. Bladestorm

    Bladestorm What's a Dremel?

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    I think the consumer doesn't trust the publishers (and to a lesser extent developers) to put out a game that is polished or even finished or to treat them as people whilst buying or if they have a problem.

    It seems pretty clear that the publishers (and to a lesser extent the developers, usually) don't trust the consumer to actually pay for games.

    The result of the first is piracy, the result of the second is copy protection. While I'm sure you could demonstrate that copy protection stops a small minority of people from pirating, its pretty clear if the figures that are touted are true, that it isn't stopping the vast majority from going ahead and pirating. I suspect what it does do, even when it works flawlessly is drive further into the minds of those who have paid for games that the companies consider them no better than the criminals and when it doesn't work flawlessly, reduce even further confidence in publishers putting out games that work.

    Now dropping copy protection wouldn't automatically fix anything, might scare a lot of managers/shareholders/acountants and might cause a loss in sales (of how much, I couldn't say, though there have been some games that went without and did better than those with ..) so it isn't something that can just be thrown out there as an easy fix (there absolutely isn't one) but I personally doubt it would hurt matters in the long run.

    I think if there is a solution to piracy from the publishers side its going to be making a real commitment to quality and treating customers as well .. customers, rather than criminals so that they feel enough confidence to go out and buy games. Removing copy protection would probably go well hand in hand with that sort of aproach, as well as providing customers with service and incentives they wouldn't get if they pirated - basically to reverse the situation as it stands now, where piracy can result in a quicker and easier experience to aquiring and getting into a game than the legal channels and where support can be in cases as bad as none.

    Hardware vendors definetely have a fair share of blame to take, since the days when you could be reasonably sure a game would run on any given set of hardware are long gone, which won't help confidence much either, though obviously publishers and developers can't do much about that one but spend even more time and money trying to compensate for it.

    My own personal take is don't pirate, pay for your games. But I can't really claim any major moral high ground because the final straw didn't occur as much out of that (Though I do feel a bit better in myself for being legit), as it did out of simply being jaded to a point of realization that I was better off waiting something like 6-24 months after games have been released and picking them up cheaply and in numbers, than I was buying a smaller number I was quite interested in at launch and pirating ones I wouldn't have otherwise bought as I did once upon a time.
     
  3. keef247

    keef247 Minimodder

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    bittttt of a bold claim?didn't do your research did you.wow is SO SIMPLE to hack.i don't do mmorpg's (i like my cod4 xboxlive/css online on my pc personally) nor do i condone piracy but without risking flaming shall we say the fact that its one url you'd have to alter to connect to a hacked server is beyond simplistic. i know this because people who are obsessed with it i know have made their own servers and my mate pays for it legit and is annoyed at the fact they get it for free.
    wasn't flaming you just make sure you do a google before trying to use examples like that. the fact that wow also doesn't need a crack to play without the disc seeing as you get your free months trial and downloaded direct from blizzard makes it even more childs play... and i know you can do these kind of things with source as your always getting dodgy hacked servers / cheating players ruining it so it doesn't surprise me in the slightest that cod now has adopted this fraud.as for ut etc they along with quake have also always had this problem sadly. i guess theres always gonna be a way around something and a challenge that people will always want to take up for skill/illegal reasons... heh surely they should be the ones working on the other side to prevent it like when hackers hack a bank etc then ask for a job in the security dept lol.fair game.beats taking an interview lmao
     
  4. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    I realise that not everyone would buy - but going on what Mike is saying (plus others who've said similar) even if just 5% of pirates bought the game then it can be the difference between a studio surviving or not. Not everyone would buy the game if they couldn't pirate it - but many would, even if they waited to get it cheaply or second hand.

    And, actually, this is a black and white issue. Not for the reasons you've said which you've somehow extrapolated erroneously, but because piracy is illegal and does have a damaging effect on the industry - you can call that lost sales or you can call that the sad reality of anti-piracy measures, the point is that it clearly does effect the industry for the worse. If you are pirating then you are breaking the law and damaging the industry. If you aren't pirating then you are supporting the developers you really like, legally solid and still getting access to good games even if you have to wait a little to get them.

    For me, it's a matter of respect. I've actually seen the amount of years and manpower that goes into creating a game and I've decided that out of respect for that dedication and commitment I will not steal the games. I fail to see how thats an arguement you can logically and sensibly argue with and I think you've yet to put up a serious reason to justify piracy. Cost is the only real reason I can see - and even that falls down when you look at the piracy figures and sales costs between console and PC games.
     
  5. Jipa

    Jipa Avoiding the "I guess.." since 2004

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    Oh btw about this part:

    I had issues with integrated sound card (I had to uninstall the drivers...) Is that really a feature? And what makes integrated sounds so impossible to get along with? Ofcourse integrated graphics just don't cut it, but damn, sounds really should.

    Is he claiming that every gamer should have the UBER GAMER F4T4L1TY CHRYSTALIZER EAX Creative or not play any games at all? :) Gaming capable sound card just sounds like utter BS to me.
     
  6. CardJoe

    CardJoe Freelance Journalist

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    No, he's just pointing out that different hardware configurations, which are constantly going out of date, make it harder to design games for the PC. Personally, I think that's something a developer should know beforehand and be prepared for when going in.
     
  7. Hamish

    Hamish What's a Dremel?

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    i dont think anyone is actually trying to justify piracy, it IS wrong in the end but i think its impact has been overblown somewhat recently
    i'd still very much like to know where those 90%+ piracy rate numbers came from or if he just invented them...
     
  8. Bladestorm

    Bladestorm What's a Dremel?

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    The vast majority of people who pirate know it is clearly wrong but do it anyway.

    On a related note I saw a bit by some psychologists lately, testing honesty vs human relations. What they did was setup an "honesty box" in a london shopping center street, which had a stack of newspapers and a box for putting payment into and then left while they secretly filmed it.

    For the first attempt they put up a sign saying "Please take a newspaper and leave payment in the box - the management", a total of one person paid for a paper they took.

    For the second attempt they replaced the sign with a similar one which included a picture of a stern-looking businessman, a total of three people paid for papers this time and a couple took multiples.

    For the third attempt they replaced the sign with one including a smiling, friendly-looking woman, this time about 85% of the people who took papers paid for them.

    They put forward that humans are social creatures and our sense of right and wrong and obedience to rules and laws came down to how much we personally related to whoever was on the other side - with a faceless corporation getting minimal respect and law-abidance and someone they felt they would like personally getting the most.
     
  9. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    IMO i think of the next:

    from the studios point of view

    the client buying the game = X cash in, Y cash out (where X>>Y)
    the client going without = 0 cash in, 0 cash out (for that particular person)
    the client doing piracy = 0 cash in (it is kind of equal to being without) , 0 cash out (for that particular person)
    the client buys a foreign cheaper game = W cash in, V cash out (were W<X and V<Y, but sometimes V is near Y and W is near Y)
    the client stealing a game from the store = X cash in (the store has paid for the game already), Y cash out (transport and stuff, but usually X>>Y)
    the client lending a game N times = X/N cash in for each person that plays the game, Y cash out (here if N is big then Y may be big enough for it to not be profitable)
    the client buying a Mnd hand game = X/M cash in for each person that plays the game, Y cash out (here if M is big then Y may be big enough for it to not be profitable, in this case the possibility of M being big is higher than lending a game to your friends and family)


    of the above, the ones i think that are more damaging are the 2 last ones.... if piracy became ridiculously illegal these will take over, and they will cause more damage than piracy..... at least that is what i think.... and of course piracy would go deep underground, from mouth to mouth and hand to hand, like in the old days....

    i am not trying to prove that piracy is good, it is not good, its like fever, a growl in the stomach, a chill, a pain in the chest.... it is a side effect of something that is wrong.... and instead of whining about piracy and how it kills "good" developers they should concentrate on finding the cure for what is wrong and not combat the side effects, kill it by the root.... but it may be to late :grr:
     
  10. impar

    impar Minimodder

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    Greetings!
    Yep.
    Games cost money to develop; A certain number of copies need to be sold to cover those costs; The more pirates and P2P feeloaders are, the less likely it is to have games sales; Less game sales hurt the game developers.
    Its not only a matter of profting from the game making activity but also a matter of covering the increasing production costs of AAA titles.
     
  11. Lepermessiah

    Lepermessiah What's a Dremel?

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    give me a freaking break, people arguing no piracy would not equal more sales? Come on, if even 10% of people who pirate bought the games, sales would increase. Some people WOULD buy if they had no choice. To see so staunchly defend piracy on this board, u see how it is an uphill battle, people make themselves believe anything. Piracy is hurting PC gaming.
     
  12. completemadness

    completemadness What's a Dremel?

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    Ok lets clear a few things up here

    1st. When i said about mod chips, if studios move to consoles "chipping" will become more popular
    Once you have put a chip in the console, that's it, there is _no_ protection left - IE, its a lot easier to pirate a game on a console once you have a chip (on PC a new hack needs to be made for each game, and update)

    2nd. You assume that 1 download = 1 lost sale
    I'm not going to lye here, Ive downloaded quite a few games, but in the end Ive only every bought the ones i really play, the ones i download i often play for a day or so, and then get bored and never touch it

    Sure, if there was no piracy i would have to buy it, but the question is, would i buy it?
    I also downloaded DoW and found it to be quite fun, and bought the trilogy - would i have bought it if i hadn't downloaded? probably not tbh

    Maybe i'm an odd ball here, but i believe that many piraters (who think about what their doing) probably buy the games that they really play
     
  13. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    Lepermessiah, if 0,0001% of all pirates bought a game sales would go up, you don't need 10%...

    and no, go ask any of your friends that pirate: "would you buy the same amount of games you download?" or "what would you do if you could not pirate"

    i will respond to both:
    A1: no way
    A2: i would probably buy second hand.... meaning that the maker of the game gets ziltch...

    IMO if piracy disappeared second hand shops will be on the copyright holders scopes, as would lending games to friends and family, and then here we would be again, some saying that it is a crime equal to stealing a car and others saying that they have the right.... me? i am in the middle, i pirate and ask friends for lent games when i am low, and i buy the stuff i like when i am high.... its a balance, i am currently buying more games and hardware due to piracy, ironic isn't it.... either that or i am not human...
     
  14. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    That's true, some people would buy if they couldn't pirate. No one's arguing that. I am however arguing that those additional sales would be offset by the people who would not buy a game they had not tried first. I can certainlky see a situation where an end of piracy contributes directly to the death of PC gaming.

    Lets say tomorrow it was impossible to pirate games. We'll say that some of the people who used to pirate go out and buy, and that an equal number of people who would have bought if they could have tried it decide not to. Just for arguement, lets say there is even a slight blip in sales the first month. Problem is, after that, there is no one on the servers to play with because the majority of people who used to be on were pirates and the people who did buy the game have jobs so they play less than the people who formerly populated the servers. Gamers considering where to spend their money may well decide to go to consoles because there are more people to play with and you can rent console games to try before you purchase them. In the end there will be fewer people playing PC games, and it will be harder for new ideas to get into the marketplace. Developers looking at the market will definatrly decide to put their resources into the console market and the PC will become a platform for small indie developers.

    Sure, you can argue with my assumptoions on this scenario, but I think it's quite plausable.
     
  15. Hamish

    Hamish What's a Dremel?

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    this is just wrong, the vast vast majority of people playing PC games online are doing so legally

    most MP games that you even can play when pirated you have to play on hacked servers or over hamachi etc
    they dont play with legit players as it is, so removing piracy wont really affect MP game population in that way
     
  16. Cthippo

    Cthippo Can't mod my way out of a paper bag

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    The original post would tend to disagree with you. I really wish they had given numbers, even flaky ones, but the rant by the guy from Iron Forge quoted numbers as high as 90% piracy. Just how prevelent it really is is a valid question though.
     
  17. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    the best people to answer that is the people that have torrent trackers....
     
  18. johnmustrule

    johnmustrule What's a Dremel?

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    The problem for me is how exspensive PC games are. 50 dollars for starters and on up for GOTY and Special editions, it's to much for limited enjoyability. One of the few games I purchased this year was Valve's Orange Box, It comes with five AAA titles each with medium to high replayability exspecially TF2 (which according to statistics has sucked away nearly sixty hours of my life). Suff like that is a deal, exspecially using steam which shall forever be my primary game purchasing service. If games where 35$ fine, I'd buy em all, but 50$ is way to much. Even if it cost's more to dev them now and in the future, they'ed atleast probably make more money if they cost less thus selling a greatly larger unit amount and I bet revenues would sky rocket. Other than finding a sweet spot for pricing I don't think there's going to be a resolution.
     
  19. DXR_13KE

    DXR_13KE BananaModder

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    here they cost about 75$......
     
  20. Xir

    Xir Modder

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    ...just for Info:

    SupCom Forged Alliance is at the moment still around 30€...that's 45$ WITHOUT the original game.
     
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