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Graphics Can a 7800GTX PC compete with an Xbox 360??

Discussion in 'Hardware' started by mickey123, 10 Sep 2005.

  1. MNC Fear

    MNC Fear Banned

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    If you buy a 360 you will be happy. But the PC will once again overtake it as the Technology changes all the time whereas the XBOX will be stuck with the same specs that you bought it with. So in short term the 360 would be a nice purchase but how many Games will there be on release and by the time there are a lot wont the PC have moved on to bigger and better things? Save your cash and buy the next Gen GFX card and you will be a happy chappy Cheers :D
     
  2. mickey123

    mickey123 What's a Dremel?

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    Hi MNC

    I know this thread makes me sound like a consol fan but Im not honest. Ive had a PC for around 10 years now and would be lost without one.

    Its just frustrating when you see what is possible for 300 quid as opposed to a 1000

    Mickey
     
  3. msm722

    msm722 What's a Dremel?

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    consoles use low resoultions to output to the tv so thats how they manage decent graphics. I love my pc for gaming as I have customizations, control, better resolutions, and the keyboard and mouse setup which I love.
     
  4. mickey123

    mickey123 What's a Dremel?

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    Hi MSN - Isnt the above a contradiction? los res and good graphics are at opposite ends of the scale.

    I agree the mouse and keyboard beat a controler anyday.
     
  5. msm722

    msm722 What's a Dremel?

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    not really mickey. The way the TV works is much like a CRT. you can change the resolution without it looking strecthed or distorted, and being at a lower rez means its easier for the computer to handle, thus spend more power on graphics.
     
  6. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    Seems that we have different ideas about what looks like a cartoon. To me the screenshots you linked to look more cartoonlike. You seem to think buzz_lip's screenshot is less cartoon like as well, whereas to me, it looks more cartoon-like than the HL2 shot. Colours are false, and oversaturated, and the lighting is very unrealistic, whereas the lighting in HL2 is very realistic, and more ambient. I think maybe the higher screen res of buzz-lip's screenie is fooling you. Remember, my screenie of HL2 is running on a 2 year old graphics card... my piont is... imagine that on a 7800.. higher res, with 8x AA and 8x aniso filtering, and then a good helping of HDR on top.

    What makes something look cartoon like is not necessarily detail... after all... a TV picture looks more "real" than ANY computer game, but has a resolution of about 320 pixels across! ANY recent computer could render photorealistic textures at decent frame rates at such low resolutions. MS have just gone to town on the whole texturing front, because that's the easiest way to create eye candy, especially at lower resolutions... texture mapping is NOT sophisticated.. I was doing that in Lightwave on my Commodore Amiga over 10 years ago.

    When I see such Xbox shots in HDTV resolutions..... actually... when I see such texture mapping at HDTV resolution, and MOVING at decent frame rates... I'll be impressed. And I'm talking about 1600 pixels or more across. Remember... TV resolutions suck... any PC could recreate that at 320 or even 640 across. In a way, lower resolutions can look more real and gritty if the lighting and colour are dealt with correctly... higher resolutions sometimes reveal flaws in an image. I'd rather play a game at 800x600 with 8xAA than one at 1280x1024 with none.

    But we're still back to my original point... all arguments about what game you think looks best aside... Buy a 360, and you'll have a nice games console... but that's it... and what's more, you can't upgrade it until they release the next generation Xbox, which may be 3 to 5 years away. Whatever raw pixel pushing power advantage the 360 has over the PC, will be lost in a matter of months, such is the pace of harware development.

    So... buy an Xbox 360, and in 2 years time you'll have an outdated piece of crap you can't upgrade.... PC users just buy a new GPU.. a bleeding edge one will only cost as much as a Xbox, so seems like fair pricing to me.

    Here's a screenie of F.E.A.R.. if you think that's cartoon like, then there's something wrong with your eyesight, because those ARE real photo textures used in that game, just like all dumbass Gotham City Racing 360 screenshots... the only difference is.. we've all actually seen FEAR move.

    [​IMG]

    As for putting a picture in into the screenie... it would look just as pants on your shot as well... as a Photographer and digital artist, that's what I do for a living, and digital composites are my speciality... see this thread. Any photo can be composited into any image, so long as the lighting is correct... resolution has nothing to do with it, nor does the quality of the image. If I had a photo with the lighting from the same direction, of teh same quality, and colour temp as the lightsource in that HL2 pic, and I promise you I could put a photo of a person in there and not have it look out of place. You'd be more hard pushed to place it in the 360 shot to be honest, as the lighting is so vague, non directional, and to be honest... unrealistic.

    ANyway.... I'm rambling again....

    Yes... XBox 360 is very, very good.. better than current PC hardware.. but current PC hardware is only current for a few months... that Xbox will be current for anything upto 5 years, in which time, the PC will be almost unrecogniseable. Look back 5 years on THG's archives, and see what we thought was cutting edge then... I promise you that you will laugh.

    I guess we're split into two camps over this.. those that just don't like consoles.. fail to see the point, and would rather have a proper computer to play games on, and those that prefer consoles - quite why anyone wants to play a FPS with a joypad is beyond me, but each to their own.
     
  7. Fr4nk

    Fr4nk Tyrannosaurus Alan !

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    I Give it 3 months or so and that 300 will still be 300 while that 1000 willl 600.

    Also you cant be that much of any exetreme gamer, so just stick with a 7800Gtx and a nice Amd X2, Fx or 64. What more could you want.

    Pcs will advance every month or so it happens... you cant always have the very best hard ware (unless your uber rich) also theres so much more you can do with a pc (you know that :rolleyes:... )

    All so that "300" aint gonna be 300 if your going to get a xbox 360 you betta have/get a HD TV (thats another £600-£6 grand just for your screen :grr: ) overwise its a complete waste... :sigh:

    EDIT: also what pookey said :thumb:
    -Frank
     
  8. Firehed

    Firehed Why not? I own a domain to match.

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    mickey - you find me a way to hook my CRT up to stuff that outputs to TV and let me know (easily, not rewiring the thing to convert RGB to component). High end LCDs have S-video and occasionally component-in, but LCDs don't scale up in res nearly as fast as CRTs do for the size. My 19" CRT maxes 1920x1440. A 19" LCD does 1280x1024. And if you're talking 30" Apple Cinema display, that's as much as a nice TV.

    The closest I've been able to get is S-video input on a TV tuner card. which, although decent, is no hi-def by any means.

    So yeah, the console's a great deal if you already have a high def TV. If not, graphics will hardly look better than current consoles - nicer textures and a bit of AA, but still about the same resolution of my cell phone's display. Take your $400 console (the $300 "core package" makes little sense to me) and add a $1500 TV. Go take that $1900, take out $200 for a 19" CRT, and you have a dual core 7800GTX rig with a ton of storage. SLI 7800-series if you're good (my X2 3800+ is currently chugging along at 2.5ghz easy, under a half of the cost of the 2.4ghz 4600+ that has the same cache, about 40% of a 4800+)
     
  9. Tim S

    Tim S OG

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    I think I'll quote myself again - all well and good having a nice console, but putting an Xbox 360 on anything less than a decent 720p HDTV flat panel would be like using a 7800GTX on a really **** 15" TFT.

    You are limited by your worst component and as the saying goes, you can't polish a turd.
     
  10. cysus

    cysus What's a Dremel?

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    We're all forgetting something here. Current PC hardware (SLI 7800gtx's) can run any game at any setting, any resolution (though FEAR does come close). The video game's aren't demanding enough for the differences of the Xbox 360 and a high-end PC to show and won't be for at least 6 months to a year, which by then the Pc hardware will have caught up. This is on top of the fact that no launch Xbox 360 game will use more than two of the six Xbox 360 processing threads, further diminishing Xbox 360 performance.

    Personally, I'm looking more towards a PS3 than the Xbox 360. It has more players, goes to 1080p (1920x1200), has dual HDMI out (which is backwards compatible with DVI-D) so you could not only have separate screens instead of a split screen but also you could use your current LCD monitors. Additionally the PS3 has OS support for Tiger and Linix (what doesn't?). It uses Bluetooth which means the peripherals I already have will work with it (keyboard, mouse, maybe even my BT headphones). Also, it has a more powerfull graphics engine than the Xbox 350 and a more streamlined CPU architecture. All around it seems like a better system. Now we just have to wait and see if I have to morgage my house to get my hands on one.
     
  11. mickey123

    mickey123 What's a Dremel?

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    woooow - Is its pick on Mickey day here:)

    Pooky - Thanks for your huuuuuuugggeeee reply mate but I am a bit of a layman and only really understand the end product IE what I see on the screen and not the maths behind it. You certainly sound like you know what your talking about however.

    Firehead - there must be some convertor. I had my ps1 hooked up to my moitor years ago (I know this wasnt hi def)

    Ok Ok, To summerise this thread so far and how I stand

    1 - Only me in the whole universe think that PC GFX looks like a cartoon (a superb one at that) If ever I look out of my door and everything looks like FEAR I wont notice a diff???

    2 - The XBox 360 IS better at the mo but in 6 months time and with much more money spent on upgrades the PC will take back its lead.

    3 - You can use a PC for many other tasks as opposed to games (this is the main reason I am upgrading as opposed to getting a consol)

    4 - No one has mentioned this yet but games on the PC are much more customizable (IE the download of patches etc)

    5 - I AM A PC FAN NOT A CONSOL FAN!!!!!!! I am not the enemy:) I just like to hear others constructive views. Also I have never seen the gap between the two so small for a long time.

    I personally thing that to the average gamer the next gen consol is a superb package at a superb price

    Mickey
     
  12. TMM

    TMM Modder

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    By the time the XBOX360 and PS3 are mainstream, PCs will be faster. If not it will only be a matter of months still PCs overtake again
     
  13. Tim S

    Tim S OG

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    I believe that SLI 7800 GTX's (or CrossFire R520 for that matter) will be faster than the GPU inside Xbox 360. However, comparing the two is like comparing a bus to a ship - Xenos is very different to conventional GPUs so in some instances it will be more efficient than SLI/CrossFire.

    Someone mentioned above - coding for Xbox 360 or Playstation 3 is easier than coding for PC because there is only one hardware platform in the console. That means you tend to get more efficient code. I thought the graphics in GT4 were pretty good, considering that it is a console that dates back to the late 90's.
     
  14. sadffffff

    sadffffff Minimodder

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    not at all. i agree that games look like a 'cartoon'. but i dont think its just pc games. the xbox 360 games look just the same to me.. and "looks like a cartoon" is probably bad wording. cell shading looks like a cartoon. computer games just dont look realistic. that is, in that there is a HUUUUGE difference between them and real life. its going to be a long time before you are going to get anything that is close to looking like real life. i say that because i havent even seen any CGI movies that look like real life yet. so i would go for the system that can offer the best looking graphics, or best games. i would always say the PC, because of upgradability and the superior displays. but then thats coming from a person who went over to his friend apartment and played on his ps2 with a hard drive installed and tons of games on it. i was sold on all the little games he had, the little "fire them up and play for a few minutes" games. im going to pick up a free ps2 (wont read disks, but i can fix that) from a friend and stick a hard drive in it later this week.

    also i would just like to add that in my opinion games are getting less realistic.. HL2 is a prime example. using pixel shaders to make all surfaces shiny is awfull. ive never seen shiny carpet, or shiny gritty floors in real life. (CS:S office is shiny out in the garage, what is up with that?!). and bloom effects are AWFULL. load up the age of empires3 demo. the light blooming everywhere makes my eyes hurt. to the defence of bloom however it is realistic, but only realistic in that when i wear my contacts too long light sources get fuzzy and blurry and hurt my eyes just like bloom does. and water especially in new games is getting worse. its like a rippling mirror!!! it looks cool but not realistic. i drive along the mississippi river every day on the way to school. its not very reflective, only very mildly in places where it is completely calm and not moving. otherwise its a greyish color. i think games looked better back with pixel shaders 1... in my opinion, we dont need new features to make games look realistic, we need better textures, photograph textures, and then we need to increase the poly count and make models and level design better. and lighting needs to be greatly worked on instead of heaving a "laser" of light coming from a source and then makeing the edges fuzzy to disguise the line... but im not a graphics developer, and im perfectly fine with playing games the way they are, and the way they progress, just sayin they dont look real.
     
  15. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    and if you went outside and everything looks like this......
    [​IMG] ....you'd think your eyesight was perfectly OK? :hehe:
     
  16. eek

    eek CAMRA ***.

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    wow that is impressive!!
    maybe i should give FEAR a go!!!
     
  17. Hamish

    Hamish What's a Dremel?

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    you should really grab the hires texture packs for HL2 and run it 1600x1200 max everything, looks fantastic :D
     
  18. allforcarrie

    allforcarrie Banned

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    xbox360 doesnt have WoW or enemy territory.
     
  19. mickey123

    mickey123 What's a Dremel?

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    Pooky - thats exactly what it looks like where I am from:)

    You are right though. Looking at FEAR and xbox 360 shot you managed to post they look as cartoonish as each other.

    As someone has allready mentioned cartoon is a word im using to describe what I see. I don't mean it in a derogatry (eek spelling) way at all.

    As for WoW and enimy teritory - you cant get earth 2160 either - im more of an rts fan and you cant get many for the consols yet.

    Mickey
     
  20. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead It's big, and it's clever.

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    Been an interesting debate this... I can't wait to see how all this pans out in reality. My money is on a repeat of history: PS2 and XBox1 initially having PC gamers wondering if they should buy one, and stop using a PC for gaming... then a few months later, the next gen of PC hardware and games is right back up there, while the consoles are stuck in limbo for the next 3 years.

    I guess all that remains now, is to wait until December and see.
     
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