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Can I ask a favour from you all

Discussion in 'Serious' started by yakyb, 18 Jan 2012.

  1. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    The RNLI was just pitched badly --people did not know what it was and what was expected of them.

    This request, again is pitched a bit poorly. The tragedy has happened and there is nothing yet another petition can do about it. It's a bit like being bombarded by a deluge of image upon image of starving, suffering children in Africa while many of us are preoccupied, in the current economic climate, with the very real worry of finding/keeping a job and keeping a roof over our heads. We feel powerless. We feel more depressed. We feel angry and frustrated with those who make us feel that way. Yes, we know that the world is a **** place. We're just trying to get on in it ourselves.

    The reason people are dismissive is because they do not want to be confronted with another tragedy that happened 23 years ago and they can't do anything about. They can't take away Kevin's mom's pain or loss. They can't make it better. They have their own stuff to worry about. So excuse them for not having too much room for empathy.
     
  2. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    This couldn't be any further from the truth. People have expressed their disinterest in signing this petition as it is obvious that should it go ahead it will cost the taxpayer a lot of money; money that can be put to better use. Asking Bit-Tech members to sign a petition in the hope that the hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on it will bring closure to one person is far more of a selfish act.

    This is ultimately the reason behind it. The family have grieved for such a long time, and they want someone else to suffer the pain they feel. This is nothing more than greed and wrath.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
  3. longweight

    longweight Possibly Longbeard.

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    Very good point, I wouldn't want that much public money spent on something that happened so long ago which has almost no impact on the world today.
     
  4. SuicideNeil

    SuicideNeil New Member

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  5. yakyb

    yakyb i hate the person above me

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    Whilst i understand completely some peoples opinion on spending money on this it is clear that a number of you do not understand what actually happened that day and what happened in the Weeks and years following.

    some peoples comments have been quite flippant, uninformed and downright insulting.

    I wont link to it but the Sun put some very harmful headlines on the front page just days after the event which were Lies. they have yet to apologise. and one man is still earning a good living off tax payer money (Kelvin Mackenzie) despite this. Lets not forget this is the same rag involved with the phone hacking scandal.

    also the story i linked to earlier told of how Police men had been told by their superiors to alter their stories days after the events. Some people believe that these instructions to change the story came directly from the office of Margret Thatcher

    Kevin was one of 96 whom had similar stories
    and his family was one of hundreds from the Liverpool area whom had a family member not return home.

    this is the second petition to have gone through in the last couple of months the first was a full undisclosed release of all files on the disaster and hopefully the truth will out.


    If one person whom read this decided to sign and if one person became a little more knowledgeable on the event than i'm glad i posted it here

    http://www.hfdinfo.com/
     
  6. Tribble

    Tribble Steals Avatars

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    yes i find it some what lyrical ;) But she will never be free, she carried him for 9 months loved comforted and adored him, watched him grow and nurtured him for those 15 years, it's not something that can be set free.

    I signed.

    I suggest we **** the eternal wind and halt the hurricane of injustice.
     
  7. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    I beg to differ. It is absolutely horrendous for her to have lost her child. It is an intolerable pain that she seeks release from. She has pinned her hope for release on this inquiry.

    But this pain is not something that can be released with an inquiry. People were faced with exceptional and overwhelming circumstances and they cocked up. It happens. We can now try and pin-point the person who made the first of a chain-reaction of decisions that turned out, in hindsight, to be disastrously wrong, and nail him to the wall. But that won't ease his mother's pain, because she won't see an evildoer brought to justice. She will just see a hapless man who was out of his depth, cocked up and probably has not been able to sleep since as he replays the same events over and over in his post-traumatic nightmares. She will see a scapegoat crucified in public so we all can have the warm fuzzy feeling that justice was somehow done and that the universe makes sense again. It will feel an empty and hollow victory. And it won't bring her son back.

    The release she seeks cannot be found there. It can only be found inside herself.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
  8. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    Oh come on - how many other women outlive their children without the benefit of a publically funded enquiry? Of course it sucks for them, but that is what happens in life.

    OP has every right to take insult, but it was bound to happen I guess, as some people are always going to read such a request and not feel obliged to to take part but explain why. But it gives the thread an extended life by us posting (not that they fall down the board fast, I'll grant you), so that's all good publicity, right?

    On a side note - with the proliferation of social networking how long is it before that 100,000 threshold changes to 1,000,000?
     
  9. Tribble

    Tribble Steals Avatars

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    Sorry no warm fuzzy feelings, i think the lady wants answers and i see nothing wrong in that, it all doesn't add up, plain and very simple.

    I do agree with some comments in this thread to a point, but you can't tell me that maybe the people responsible may have sleepless nights, and i'm sure there were alot of people that made horrendous mistakes that day, maybe they'd sleep better if they came forward and admitted those mistakes and i doubt very much one person will be made to take the blame.

    This is what she wants, no one can tell her how to feel, only she can do that.

    There will be no victory what ever the out come, but maybe some hard cold truth.
     
  10. Tribble

    Tribble Steals Avatars

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    haha was this suppose to be amusing such hilarity ensues. ;)
     
  11. Porkins' Wingman

    Porkins' Wingman Can't touch this

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    You're welcome, but no, it wasn't. Which bit was the funny part for you?
     
  12. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    It's true though --I think your reasoning is a bit facile if you assume that those involved on the day were not affected by it, and could reasonably have made better decisions. Perhaps they are not coming forward to fall on their knees and confess because they do not believe they did anything intentionally wrong. Perhaps they are just afraid. I would be --the public is a lynch mob waiting for a cause.

    I see this sort of thing all the time in my job: the impossible quest, the magic spell of naming it to make it true, the ultimate catharsis. It's chasing spectres and ghosts. Nothing good will come of this. In truth there is not always knowledge, freedom, beauty, nor balm. Release must be found within.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2012
  13. KayinBlack

    KayinBlack Currently Rebuilding

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    Yup.

    I didn't realize how much had already been done.

    Also, yes, peace about something like that isn't found in a piece of info, or even an incarcerated person-it's found in yourself, when you understand that it hurts like hell but if you stay here holding this rock you're gonna hit the bottom soon, and sink into the mud. I found it-I had to learn to let go of some of it. You don't "get over" losing your mother (or child)-you learn to live anyway, and honor their memory by living a full life, not joining the dead while living.
     
  14. Da_Rude_Baboon

    Da_Rude_Baboon What the?

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    What the lady in question is asking for has already been done. Stadium design was radically altered after the disaster and it led to changes to the health and safety regulations.
     
  15. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    Including a major overhaul in Police presence and tactics at matches.
     
  16. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    OK, so as my avatar shows, I'm a Liverpool fan - so naturally I'm biased, but probably also a little better informed on this issue.

    I've already signed the petition, but not entirely based on the single issue of holding an inquest, but on the wider issue issues of justice.

    Some have pointed out that all the changes that could be expected, have already been implemented - all-seater stadia, etc. It wasn't the lack of seating that was the problem, it was the lack of Police control at the gates to the ground, and their subsequent actions.

    Some people have stated that the mother is seeking 'closure' - she probably is - but no amount of 'cupping hands' will help and yes she should 'let go' but perhaps she wants a little more?

    The loss of control of a public event by South Yorkshire Police resulted in the deaths of 96 innocent people who simple went to watch a football match. After the disaster itself, there was a cover-up, aided by a compliant tabloid press, who (like the Police) considered football-going fans as little more than animals.

    'Cover-up' is a strong accusation. Surely it was just a case of confusion in the aftermath? No, there is plenty of evidence that a) the Police fed lies to the press to deflect attention, and that b) they altered testimony and evidence from rank and file officers who were at the ground.

    The point of the inquest is not to pacify just one woman. It is yet another attempt to get the truth out on the open, and get an official acknowledgement from the authorities that 96 people died because of the failure of Police to control the event, and that they subsequently lied to the public and to 2 inquests. It's probably too late to punish the key officers involved, but airing the truth and, heaven forbid, actually apologising to the families would go a long way.

    Justice is important, and should not be time-limited.

    Follow some of these links, them make your own enquiries... listen to the sources you trust, and make your own mind up. THEN come back and decide whether this inquest should happen.



    Hillsborough Justic Campaign:
    http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/index.shtm <= read this, if nothing else.

    Sun - 'The Truth':
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2004/jul/07/pressandpublishing.football1
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/mackenzies-hillsborough--the-sun-told-the-truth-426674.html
     
  17. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Good argument, but it's back to my first remark: is this campaign not pitched the wrong way? It's not specifically about what happened to Kevin (or others), or about who messed up on the say or why. It is about misrepresentation and falsification of the accounts of that day: about slander, basically, and the ducking of responsibility.
     
  18. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    You are right; I think the campaign is borne somewhat of desperation.

    But the problem is that broader, reasonable appeals have been largely ignored until very recently. Unlike the general clamour for 'justice', Mrs Williams request is focused on some very specific issues - for instance, the unfathomable cut-off in previous inquests - 3.15pm. Kevin, and a number of other victims, were reputedly alive well beyond 3.15pm, but this has been denied by the initial coroner and subsequent inquest, and this cut-off excuses the authorities from investigated a host of errors that occurred subsequently.

    Basically, the Williams' request focuses on specific technical issues, and is a great way of 'getting a foot in the door'. There are numerous other lines of attack ongoing... including the Hillsborough Independent Panel.

    This government's hands are clean on the issue, and there are members of the former administration who were instrumental in starting the ball rolling, including Andy Burnham and (somewhat reluctantly) Jack Straw. But 22 years on, I don't think you can have too much justice.
     
  19. MiNiMaL_FuSS

    MiNiMaL_FuSS ƬӇЄƦЄ ƁЄ ƇƠƜƧ ӇЄƦЄ.

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    I think there's a lot of misdirected feeling behind this enquiry.

    I can understand where families that lost someone in this terrible event are coming from, essentially they feel that having a better understanding of the chain of event that day, and possibly finding somebody to blame and bring to 'justice' will help them to move on.

    Sadly that's very unlikely, people often find one thing to latch onto and put faith in as the answer to their terrible loss and mourning, and when they reach that thing, they find that it does little to help. They can only really move on when they make the difficult and terrible choice to do so.

    The millions that this enquiry would cost would be better spent donated to a charity, it could change/save millions of lives. It won't answer the families questions, but it's unlikely that a drawn out public enquiry will actually provide them with the answers they seek anyway.

    As sad as the event was, the lessons in safety and response have already been learnt form it, those people did not die in vein, they've made us all safer. All that can come from an enquiry is bad memories and more ruined lives...there are no lessons left to learn.
     
  20. Throbbi

    Throbbi New Member

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    I've been avoiding this thread as I did not have anything really valid to contribute.

    However, today I discovered that a friend of ours (became my friend through already being friends with my missus and family) was actually at Hillsborough. I'd had no idea about this previously, I just sometimes bring up things from the serious section with friends as lively debate is a great way of spending an evening (well I think it is anyway, broadens the mind if nothing else).

    Everyone is different but the way his face changed after the subject was started told me that whilst it is horrible for the mother who still wants some closure it is as, if not more, horrible to get people who have come to terms with what happened and what they saw and experienced to relive these events for the sake of one person. Many of these people took years to overcome the things they saw, felt and heard, why make them suffer again? To try to explain something that can possibly never be explained satisfactorily? To account blame to someone or something? If there is any one or more people to blame, I'm fairly certain that they know they are to blame and no court could ever bestow punishment worse than what they have everyday from their own conscience.

    tl;dr Don't make people who quite obviously suffered enough during the event suffer more by being made to relive it again through a long investigation process.....again. Don't try to put blame somewhere 20odd years later when if there is some to blame, they already have punishment enough.
     

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