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Can I ask a favour from you all

Discussion in 'Serious' started by yakyb, 18 Jan 2012.

  1. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    If you follow the links I provided, you'll probably come to the conclusion that the families do know much of what happened...

    ...but that perhaps the establishment haven't learned their lessons. It's hard to change in response to failure, when you have denied being responsible in the first place. Yes, I'm talking about the South Yorkshire Police in the first instance, but also about the government involvement, the press reaction, the approach of the judiciary in the inquests, and the West Midlands Police, in their investigate into SYP.

    It's not about 'closure', it is about Justice. It is about all parties concerned owning up to their failures, and thinking of ways to ensure 'this' doesn't happen again. 'This' being the deceit and and the harm that it has done to a large number of families, a football club and even an entire city.

    This is patronising, and not a little inflammatory.

    Let the people who suffered decide whether they want to live through a 'long investigation process'. And they have decided; they don't want to be brushed under the carpet any longer - they want a the truth to come out, and to be proclaimed from the rooftops. How dare you speak for them!

    And who exactly is there whom we would blame, but have already suffered enough? The key officers in the South Yorks Police were all allowed to retire on lucrative pensions or to continue without experiencing any impediment in their careers. The Whitehall mandarins who were complicit haven't lost a night's sleep. The Sun only apologised years later, when they were desperate to recover their circulation, and their Editor, Kelvin McKenzie has repeatedly said that he has nothing to apologise for and that he only printed the truth. And the two Justice's involved in the inquests have escaped censure, and there has been nothing put in place to prevent a similar charade if another event were to occur.

    In UK law, there is no 'Statute of Limitations'. There is no time limit after which we don't care about certain crimes. Crimes were committed in 1989 involving the deaths of 96 innocent people, and 23 years later nobody has been brought to account.
     
    Last edited: 21 Jan 2012
  2. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Just to keep the focus of this debate clear: can you specify the crimes?
     
  3. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    IANAL, but there could numerous charges at the event itself, up to and including manslaughter. However, more realistically, I would have thought charges relating to tampering with/falsifying evidence for an enquiry would suffice.
     
  4. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    There is actually a lot of limitation on time to deal with crime. Obviously not so much murder, but hundreds of crimes have to a charging decision within six months.

    Don't go making inaccurate statements then plead ignorance with 'IANAL'.
     
  5. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Until there is a proper inquest, until the truth comes out, there can be no suggestion of charges or other recrimination. If it turns out that charges would be warranted, but that there was some reason why they could or should not be brought - so be it.

    The families are after justice, and that can come in many forms. Nobody seriously expects *anyone* in Police/government/press to actually get charged with anything... but just because there is little likelihood of the culprits being held accountable for their actions it doesn't mean their shouldn't be an investigation. Naming and shaming, followed by a sincere apology would probably be beyond the wildest dreams of the families.
     
  6. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    In this situation (ie, indictable only offences) then it can always be investigated and should there be a realistic prospect of conviction against a person or persons, then charges will sought. unfortunately, it being 2012, time is wildly against anyone looking to create/find new evidence.

    Please don't get me wrong, the Police buggered up. But it was at a managerial level. No one can deny (infact the TV cameras show) that the Officers on the ground tried their best to save people. The Officers of rank (managers, if you prefer) were the ones giving the instructions, instructions that cost a lot of lives. The trouble is, nothing like this ever happened before, and it was utterly spontaneous. There is only so much you can do with what you have immediately infront of you.

    Still, I think we can safely say that lessons were learnt and nothing has really happened like that since. That can only be a good thing.
     
  7. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    You are still missing the point... the primary concerns are truth and justice. A proper inquest will help reveal the truth, which will somewhat placate the families. That could follow with (sincere) apologies from the parties concerned, and finally, action to help ensure 'this' wouldn't happen again.

    And by 'this' I mean the injustice of the Police and governmental response... not ground safety - as others have suggested, the Taylor report has substantially dealt with that.

    If, at the end of this whole process, there are indications of crimes being committed AND there is a realistic possibility of conviction AND the CPS think it is in the public interest, then sure, we can taken people to court. But I don't think that is the primary concern of the families.
     
  8. Fishlock

    Fishlock .o0o.

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    It's pretty contradictory to say the primary concerns are truth and justice, then say taking people to court is not their concern.

    23 years on, the truth will never be revealed. People have the magical getaway clause of, "I don't remember" and that will be that. No new evidence will come to light. This has been done before and nothing has come of it, what's going to change now?
     
  9. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    So what you are thinking of is something along the lines of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission in South Africa?
     
  10. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    Justice comes in many flavours - convicting wrong-doers may be a part of that, or it may not.

    As I said earlier, much of the truth is on record - but some of it was not allowed to be aired in previous inquests, which is one of the injustices of this case. The release of all original records and allowing the Police Officers, Ambulance drivers and other witnesses who were denied a voice last time around, a chance to speak would be a good idea - I sincerely doubt most of them have forgotten a single moment of what happened on that day.

    Not really, though I can see why you suggest that. I think there should be a good, old-fashioned British inquest, but with access to all records, all witnesses, no artificial limits on scope (i.e. a 3.15pm cut-off)...

    However, I do appreciate one of the benefits of the T&R Commission was that, by offering amnesty to anyone who admitted guilt but offered full disclosure, they were more able to heal some of the wounds of apartheid - and more likely to find out the truth.

    Nothing wrong with restorative justice... if the parties involved 'fessed up rather than continuing to hide, I think the families would be satisfied (though of course I'm not really qualified to speak for them).
     
    YEHBABY, KidMod-Southpaw and Tribble like this.
  11. Nexxo

    Nexxo * Prefab Sprout – The King of Rock 'n' Roll

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    Your arguments are compelling and have convinced me. :) Unfortunately as a Dutchman I do not think that I have a vote to cast in this.
     
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  12. javaman

    javaman May irritate Eyes

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    I say this everyday about the inquests into the troubles. Inquests about inquests about inquests. Why should my generation and the next generation be saddled with the debts of the previous generations that couldn't get on? They caused the problems and now expect their children to pay for it too? There comes a time when a line has to be drawn and while we should never forget the past, we cannot spend forever studying it to the point it continues to cost us our future. While people need closure to move on, the money could be spent making sure those wounds aren't inflicted again.
     
  13. yakyb

    yakyb i hate the person above me

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  14. sp4nky

    sp4nky BF3: Aardfrith WoT: McGubbins

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    Can we also have an inquest into the Heysel disaster at the same time? I say this because when I saw the Hillsborough tragedy, I couldn't help but think of Heysel and automatically blame the Liverpool fans.
     
  15. dolphie

    dolphie New Member

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    I was watching all this on the news tonight. I can't believe it. I feel numb now with sadness and anger. The things that struck me the most are:

    1) The FA made the match happen at a shitty stadium with no health and safety certificate, which had also had a similar problem years earlier and was ignored.

    2) Around half of the 96 people who died could have been saved, but the ambulances weren't allowed inside and the cover up seemed to happen immediately. They were more interested in making all the football fans look bad, than actually saving peoples lives!

    3) Not only did they all act so badly and cause this event to happen, but the lies... my god the lies. First off, the police changed around 150 statements to become lies. And the ambulance chiefs even lied too, to cover up their grave mistakes. AND the coroner lied, saying everyone was already dead by 3:15 pm or whatever, when in reality many of them were alive far later than that, and according to experts... could have been saved!

    4) The Sun newspaper made the most disgusting lies I have ever heard, lies about people fighting and stealing and urinating on each other, when the truth was that none of that happened, it was just a bunch of people fighting for their lives, some died, and others tried to help the injured and dying.

    5) Not only were there so many lies, they have been in place for more than 20 years. If I lost someone all that time ago and there were lies made up about them being drunk or something, maybe even worse, I just don't know how I could have coped with going 2 decades with a dead relatives name being soiled by scum bag lies.


    I am pretty amazed that something this horrible could happen in modern Britain. I want to see prison sentences galore.
     
  16. cjmUK

    cjmUK Old git.

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    I suspect you know as little about Heysel as you do about Hillsborough.

    As a Liverpool fan, I too would love to see an inquest into Heysel. While, regrettably, a certain number of Liverpool fans were culpable in the deaths of 39 other people, the situation is a bit more complicated than you imagine. At Heysel, the ground, the police approach and decision-making and the behaviour of rival fans were also contributing factors.

    Liverpool FC and it's fans were punished for their part - perhaps not as much as some want - but no-one else was held to account, and lessons were not learned...

    However, I think this debate can wait for another day - today is about the 96 who died at Hillsborough.
     
  17. Harlequin

    Harlequin Well-Known Member

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    Hillsborough 1989

    So the police lied , and the ambulence failed.


    and the unions want to strike for them for more pay.
     
    Last edited: 13 Sep 2012
  18. longweight

    longweight Possibly Longbeard.

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    First of all this should be in Serious Discussion.

    Secondly the OP is supposed to contain an opinion which others can discuss, not two short sentences which lead nowhere.
     
  19. longweight

    longweight Possibly Longbeard.

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    DP, if you know what I mean ;)
     
  20. Bogomip

    Bogomip ... Yo Momma

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    How does what happened then bear any relevance to the current pay of police and ambulance staff? Wy should an entire profession be damned for what one group of individuals did?

    Police iirc are not allowed to strike either, are critical to the function of our society, and have had pay frozen for coming up on four (?) years now. Public sector workers are getting a raw deal all around at the moment, thats why the unions who have never been on strike are on strike now. So dont you come on here suggesting that public sector, key workers, in some very tough jobs, should be punished for something that happened over 20years ago.
     

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